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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 9:11:06 PM
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betterisoneday
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I do agree that some head coverings do seem to draw more attention to the woman wearing them and it makes me wonder how that can be considered humble?
I would assume it's the same/similar to wearing a skirt that's long enough/shirt that covers enough (whatever that is to (general) you) and it's material being some sort of pattern. It's possible to wear a nice print dress and not be prideful of it imo, but I could very well be wrong. *shrug*
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/18/2009 4:25:21 PM
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emily.lauren
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The way I understood the "head covering" passage was the same way I understood Paul's writing to the slave. Paul told the slave to obey his master not because Paul was endorsing slavery, but because by being humble the slave is emulating Jesus' nature. Jesus didn't come to change culture, but individual people. Much of what Paul writes about is not offending people or cultures at large-- so that they didn't have reason to speak against Christians.
In the same way, from what I've read Paul was urdging these women to wear veil's to show their humility. And if you look at Paul's writing on other subjects, there is very little to warrant an interpretation that puts the husbands over their wives. Both the husbands and the wives have been told, essentially, to submit to each other. In fact, one could argue that Paul gave men more responsibility towards submitting to their wives than he did the women-- but that argument would ignore the context of the culture. Women already were expected to submit, but men were not. Told to "love like Jesus loved the Church" they are essentially told to serve their wives (Jesus came not to be served, but to serve), which was something they wouldn't have heard very much at all.
I'll have to see if I can't find a few of those articles around. They were pretty interesting.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 2/26/2009 3:07:11 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 34
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
as someone else pointed out...it is not an adornment....adornment is done to draw attention to something for our praise....
and to point out a twist to what you stated...we can also have a quiet and gentle spirit and not wear clothing either...
now back to the real issue....
Why do non-covering believers feel they have to justify not covering or argue so vehemently against it?
It still comes back to...."Judge for yourselves..."
I am not in bondage because I cover....I do not need to be convinced of anything. Neither am I trying to convince anyone else to cover....it is God's place to lead....not mine...but I will discuss and explain my stance.
Maybe it's because each post made from supporters of head-covering seems to condemn any woman who (1) cuts her hair and (2) does not cover.
I love the Lord. I try very hard to stay close to Him and to learn all He has to teach me. I have had long hair before and I absolutely HATED it! Everything about it. How hot is is in the summer; having to always pull it up because it gets in my face or in my way; the fact that it takes FOREVER to wash and dry; having to braid it before bed so it won't tangle; having my husband roll over on the braid in his sleep and pin me to the bed (yes, this happened MANY times and it's PAINFUL!!).... If that's "glory", I'll pass, thanks....
My hair is short and (believe it or not) the cut is in NO way "androgenous". It is cute and feminine. I do not cover. I do not condemn anyone who makes this decision, but I do not believe it makes them more spiritually mature than myself, nor do I feel any conviction from the Lord to do so myself.
The intent of the passages quoted by Paul indicate that covering is for showing humility. But, if one takes pride in their humility, is it still humility?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2009 3:12:53 PM
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fdubry
Posts: 5
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From: Montreal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
However at my MIL's church they wear all sorts of large hats (think Aretha at the inauguration.) I always make the joke that one starts out in a plain hat, then the next wears one with a flower, then the next lady wears one with some branches, and before you know it one lady has the entire forest complete with birds on top of her head.
But God knows what's in our heart. He knows if we are being humble or doing it for show.
Hi, last time I posted on this thread was 4 years ago; this thing has a life of its own.
Lexie, your point on humility with dress code reminds me of Paul's recommendation to Timothy (1Tim 2:9-10)
quote:
(9) Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing, (10) but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God.
To understand how current this passage is to your situation we have to put it into context:
First Paul talks about a prayer meeting, then he speaks on the woman's dress code, he follows this prescribing woman not to teach or take authority over men and finally he gives a list of qualities for one desiring an authority position in the church.
While these entire themes may seem unrelated there is a connection between them:
Here it is:
(1) The first recommendation is prayer; to Paul it's the single most important Christian activity. But while he's addressing the subject his mind goes towards other matters in a prayer meeting,
(2) "the way some woman dress" is inappropriate, it's distracting to both men and woman. So if prayer is important one full attention should be devoted to it. Now that Paul's mind is on how a woman should present herself in church, another point comes to mind:
(3) The confusion about authority. This is easy to understand since the Holy Spirit has descended at Pentecost, woman and men have spiritual gifts, both can prophesy, heal the sick, etc. In fact a woman can also pray with the men (1 Cor 11:3-ff). To us this seems normal, but then it was a revolution, and the first Christian feminist movement was already rearing its head. Paul had to set some ground rules so that it would not flourish and at the same time bring it's fair share of confusion to all mankind. While on the subject of authority and in the process of setting ground rules Paul goes on to:
(4) The requirements for leaders in the church of the most holy one.
As you can see there is a thread, Paul is fitting against the confusion of roles. He first enjoins men to stand up and be counted in prayer (something he does not need to say to our precious sisters as they seem more prone to prayer then men. Then he proceeds to give various recommendations.
To come back to your point, let's look at #2 and think for an instant that most of the churches have (or have heard of) the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians. Let's picture that some of them understood the head covering to be punctual, which is only when a woman would pray or prophesy the she would lift up a sort of shale from her shoulders to cover her head, and then when she is done she could take it off. Now this scenario is plausible since Paul would hardly take about braided hair if he head was covered at all times during a worship service.
You being a woman (I assume) I will let you imagine how distracting this activity could be for all concerned. Hey maybe you could describe to us how you think how this type of prayer would play out.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2009 2:13:16 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1773
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
as someone else pointed out...it is not an adornment....adornment is done to draw attention to something for our praise....
and to point out a twist to what you stated...we can also have a quiet and gentle spirit and not wear clothing either...
now back to the real issue....
Why do non-covering believers feel they have to justify not covering or argue so vehemently against it?
It still comes back to...."Judge for yourselves..."
I am not in bondage because I cover....I do not need to be convinced of anything. Neither am I trying to convince anyone else to cover....it is God's place to lead....not mine...but I will discuss and explain my stance.
Maybe it's because each post made from supporters of head-covering seems to condemn any woman who (1) cuts her hair and (2) does not cover.
Can you give a specific post?
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2010 12:03:59 AM
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Saltlight_2188
Posts: 1953
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From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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Bumping this back up because I've really enjoyed the discussion and would like to hear more ideas on the subject.
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Lisa Lisa
Mercy triumphs over judgment
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Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 8:58:23 AM
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pink..
Posts: 10518
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: Indiana
Status: online
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Lisa, did you see the HEAD COVERING SUPPORT thread too? Just thought you might be interested in that one as well.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 11:07:05 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Here's something I don't "get".
If some women cover their heads because they are wanting to cover their "glory", what is the point of then wearing something that is pretty and eye-catching, and liable to attract even more attention than their hair likely would have? I know some wear plain headcoverings, but some don't, and there is even a thread on this forum where, amongst other things, some of the women compare notes on the sorts of headcovering they each wear, colours, patterns.
It's not a big deal to me, it just seems strange to me, like it defeats the object.
I agree. And if you're going to cover your hair, shouldn't you actually cover it? Nearly every woman I know wears headbands. That's not covering.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 12:36:53 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1773
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hmm.
so...because we choose to cover we should automatically be "woof"? LOL
Most don't wear FANCY hair coverings...the really pretty catchy ones are usually for things like weddings, special events, etc. Kind of like you don't wear an evening gown to work.....
The degree of size that one wears to cover is between them and God. It is the act...not the size. It isn't about covering their "glory". It is about showing submission to God....
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 12:39:29 PM
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Saltlight_2188
Posts: 1953
Joined: 10/17/2005
From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coltblue
Lisa, did you see the HEAD COVERING SUPPORT thread too? Just thought you might be interested in that one as well.
Yes, thank you. I found it and I am subbed. Good stuff there.
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Lisa Lisa
Mercy triumphs over judgment
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 12:42:41 PM
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Saltlight_2188
Posts: 1953
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From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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Speaking of "woof"(LOL and just kidding), do any of you ladies who cover wear makeup as well. Or is that incongruous to you?
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Lisa Lisa
Mercy triumphs over judgment
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 5:43:24 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1773
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saltlight_2188
Speaking of "woof"(LOL and just kidding), do any of you ladies who cover wear makeup as well. Or is that incongruous to you?
I sometimes wear foundation to cover blemishes and for special nights out with hubby...but I never wore a lot of makeup...I just have never wanted to bother with it much.
I have known a lot of women who cover who do still wear makeup just like everyone else.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 8:56:16 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 4023
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quote:
If some women cover their heads because they are wanting to cover their "glory", what is the point of then wearing something that is pretty and eye-catching, and liable to attract even more attention than their hair likely would have? I know some wear plain headcoverings, but some don't, and there is even a thread on this forum where, amongst other things, some of the women compare notes on the sorts of headcovering they each wear, colours, patterns.
It totally depends on the interpretation one takes. Some take it as a spiritual symbol *and* an extension of "plainness" and being clearly "set apart" from the world, along with modesty by covering the hair (Amish and Mennonite, for instance). The passage doesn't use modesty specifically as a reason though, and so others take it as a spiritual sign only, and thus have no problem drawing attention to it by having a pretty one, and the hair is still unseen under the covering, mostly.
On the other side of that, if one *doesn't* want to draw attention, a nice scarf or a hat or a wide headband is more easily camoflaged than an Amish-style "kapp".
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 Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 1:06:04 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 241
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This has me thinking...why not cover ALL the time?
Here's one argument for covering all the time: It's a way to show obedience to God and is also an extension for modesty (everyone's free to argue this, I just came up with it anyway ). Christian women in other countries, such as Eastern Europe and the Middle East also cover their hair, so why shouldn't we?
Alternative view: Covering should be a conviction that we shouldn't impose on others. The Bible says that our hair is our "glory"-- if that is so, why should we cover our hair all the time? There are women who are married and only their husbands can see their hair-- why? Does that mean hair is bad, and is sexual? I remember growing up I was raised (this is a belief in India) to believe that my hair was my beauty and I should not cut it (whoops ), but it wasn't something that should be hidden away.
What do you all think?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 8:32:18 AM
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W.O.F.
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I do cover all the time, except when I am bathing or am sleeping. I get up in the morning, get dressed and part of that is putting on my covering.
I agree we should not impose it on others...and 99% of the people I know, both online and IRL do NOT impost it upon others. They just do it themselves. Period. We get accused of trying to force it on others, and while I know there are some churches that do.....for the most part...most do not.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 11:52:20 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1773
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Re: covering all the time...
I cover for prayer. Sometimes I pray while washing the dishes or driving the car. So most days it's just a long-term habit to put on my covering as I'm getting dressed.
This is not "imposing on others". In wearing it, I'm not asking them to. Oddly, I was "confronted" by a lady in church last week about it. Apparently it bugged her even there.  I agree.....we are called to be people of prayer..and it also says we are to be covered when we teach...I homeschool my children...so teaching is a daily activity for me.
quote:
As to not letting anyone but the husband see--I have Menno friends and part of covering for them is modesty. No man but their husband will ever see the full glory of their hair. I don't think that makes hair bad-sexual because I don't think sex within marriage is bad or shameful. Just precious and private. So if for them that long hair/glory is part of beauty that should be reserved for a husband, there's no shame attached to covering around other men--just reservation and modesty.
AMEN
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 12:57:58 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 241
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
This is not "imposing on others". In wearing it, I'm not asking them to. Oddly, I was "confronted" by a lady in church last week about it. Apparently it bugged her even there.
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
We get accused of trying to force it on others, and while I know there are some churches that do.....for the most part...most do not.
I do feel for you ladies who cover most or all of the time, but I would like to share a possible interpretation to why other women would be "bugged" by covering or believe that it's forced on others. We talked about conviction and I think if one feels convicted to cover during church and prayer-- as I do-- it is normally seen as a "good" or positive thing if it helps one's faith. However, I see the flip side as well-- that it can make other women feel guilty for not being "modest enough" or "not convicted enough". I used to get comments by other people because I have strong feelings about not getting drunk and others would tell me that I "must think that I am better than them" or I was "making them feel bad". I know that's an extreme example, but it's the closest one I have to this topic.
I know as a woman, there are times where if I see another Christian lady who only wears skirts and dresses, I start to feel bad as well, even if she has never once said a word of it to me or imposed her views on me. I think it has to do with how we at least don't feel or think we are "measuring up" to our Christian sisters. It's the "well if everyone's doing it, so should I, or it will make me look bad". I hear a lot of the "I'll look bad if I don't..." statements concerning various issues. Do you ladies understand what I am saying here? I am just trying to provide a possible explanation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
No man but their husband will ever see the full glory of their hair. I don't think that makes hair bad-sexual because I don't think sex within marriage is bad or shameful. Just precious and private. So if for them that long hair/glory is part of beauty that should be reserved for a husband, there's no shame attached to covering around other men--just reservation and modesty.
In this situation, another woman might start to feel guilty for not "doing enough" and allowing other men to see her hair. For instance...if Jane only allows her husband--one man-- to see her hair, but Sally doesn't cover 24/7, Sally will start to feel that maybe she isn't modest enough, reserved enough, or good enough in some respect. Sally might think "if Jane sees covering her hair as being reserved and modest, does that mean I am showing off my hair immodestly?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 8:00:47 AM
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pink..
Posts: 10518
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: Indiana
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I don't cover often. We don't cease to obey our convictions just because it may cause others to examine their own convictions.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 9:07:36 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 4023
Joined: 4/12/2005
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While I understand *why* a woman might feel guilty/questioning when someone else wears a covering...
Is that sort of reaction *my* fault, or something the other woman needs to deal with? I mean, I have friends who dress way, way more modestly than I do and have very strict rules, and if I felt "judged" by them it would be all in my head. They are loving, accepting, and wonderful caring friends who understand that i have different convictions. It would be wrong for me to presume that their motive in wearing something is to make me feel guilty or force me to wear what they do.
I would venture to guess that the people who get offended by headcovering have their own standards which they hold to firmly. When I was a teen, the church I was in, the pastor was agressively anti-headcovering and was constantly challenging me over it. When I explained (at his request) why I wear it, he took it as a personal attack on his wife's way of doing things. Yet he was extremely legalistic about his own standards.
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 4/25/2010 9:20:17 AM >
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 9:46:42 AM
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Sideways
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Two friends of mine were Pakistani Muslims, living in the US (legally). They were both lovely girls who use to cover with the traditional head scarf, but stopped after a while. They said if the point of modesty is not to draw attention to yourselves, then they should not cover in the US but they should cover in Pakistan.
Being Muslim here in the US south has it's drawbacks, and while we are a heavy Christian majority (where I live), some of those Christians are not very nice people, and I can see why they would not want to draw attention to the fact that they are Muslim. OTOH, if you are a Christian, quiverfull, homeschooling family.... this is the place for you. Race and religion are complicated issues here, and a lot depends on where exactly you live (close to a major city or not).
For a white, Christian lady, Maggie brought up a good point that someone could simply wear a wide headband or something like that.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 4/25/2010 10:00:26 AM >
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 12:50:40 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 241
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Is that sort of reaction *my* fault, or something the other woman needs to deal with?
quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
I don't cover often. We don't cease to obey our convictions just because it may cause others to examine their own convictions.
I am not saying that it's a matter of fault! But on one hand, if I covered in church and a woman approached me about how she felt bothered or whatever about it, don't I have the responsibility of explaining to her in a Christ-like manner why I feel compelled to cover, but that does not mean it's a poor reflection of others' not covering? I think what becomes problematic here is that we can get so caught up in defending ourselves instead of explaining the nuts and bolts and then leaving the ultimate responsibility of how to cope with it to the other person. I can recall a time where I used to work with young Muslim women and I asked about their headcoverings and they simply explained to me that it was between them and God, and not about comparing themselves to others or trying to make others feel a certain way. She stressed that it had to do with what she wanted to demonstrate to God, and ultimately everyone has to figure that out for themselves. Why it would be a problem for a Christian to take that same approach, I'm not sure.
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