RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread

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Cloak -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (9/13/2009 1:22:58 PM)
Sometimes it's hard to discern or recognize those charismatic folks. They are charming, smooth talkers. Same thing can be said about some churches who follow in their teaching. Eventually the truth will come out. A wise person should do whatever he is supposed to do, be it changing his church or pray for another genuine and mature Christians and churches. I used to go to a church that promoted their teaching and thus changed it.

bZirk -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (9/13/2009 6:30:53 PM)
Haven't read past this post, so forgive me if I'm repeating. quote: ORIGINAL: Sammy_S I have been writing a series of notes on facebook about the WOF movement,it is shocking how many professing Christians lack discernment. It shouldn't be a shock when we remember Paul's words to Timothy: ...they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (II Tim. 4:3) Bottom line: people hear what they want to hear, and many of them want to hear that they have a cakewalk.

Sammy_S -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (9/16/2009 11:04:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bzirk Haven't read past this post, so forgive me if I'm repeating. quote: ORIGINAL: Sammy_S I have been writing a series of notes on facebook about the WOF movement,it is shocking how many professing Christians lack discernment. It shouldn't be a shock when we remember Paul's words to Timothy: ...they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (II Tim. 4:3) Bottom line: people hear what they want to hear, and many of them want to hear that they have a cakewalk. True.

Fritzpw_Admin -> Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/25/2010 3:12:44 PM)
quote: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching John MacArthur - Grace to You I don't watch much television, and when I do I generally avoid the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). For many years TBN has been dominated by faith-healers, full-time fund-raisers, and self-proclaimed prophets spewing heresy. I wrote about the false gospel they proclaim and the phony miracles they pretend to do almost two decades ago in Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992. See especially chapter 12). I had my fill of charismatic televangelism while researching that book, and I can hardly bear to watch it any more. Recently, however, while recovering from knee-replacement surgery, I decided to sample some of the current fare on TBN. From a therapeutic point of view it seemed a good choice: something more excruciating than the pain in my leg might distract me from the physical suffering of post-surgical trauma. And I suppose on that basis the strategy was effective. But it left me outraged and frustrated - and eager to challenge the misperceptions in the minds of millions of unbelievers who see these false teachers masquerading as ministers of Christ on TBN. I'm outraged at the brazen way so many false teachers twist the message of Scripture in Jesus' name. And I'm frustrated because I'm certain that if these charlatans were not receiving a large proportion of their financial support from sincere believers (and silent acquiescence from Christian leaders who surely know better), they would have no platform for their shenanigans. They would soon lose their core constituency and fade from the scene. Instead, religious quacks are actually multiplying at a frightening pace. One thing I discovered to my immense displeasure is that TBN is by no means the only religious network broadcasting poisonous false doctrine around the clock. The channel lineup I receive includes at least seven other channels whose schedules are filled with false teachers and charlatans. There's The Church Channel, Daystar, GodTV, World Harvest Television (LeSEA), Total Christian Television, and several others. Some of them feature blocs of family television programming and a few fairly sound teachers who provide moments of escape from the prosperity preachers. But all of them give prominence to enormous amounts of heresy and religious claptrap - enough to make them positively dangerous. And TBN is singularly responsible for kicking that door open so wide. Read the rest of Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching Read more articles on www.Crosswalk.com Spiritual Life From the article... "it is clear that the message that currently dominates religious television is "a different gospel"

themoodyexperience -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/25/2010 3:18:31 PM)
Please keep posting articles like this. These temple moneychangers and wolves in sheeps' clothing need to be taken to task at every possible opportunity.

sirwintery -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/25/2010 4:12:16 PM)
MacArthur makes a large point that failing to silence self-indulgent and false teachers is a bad witness that can and does injure the faith of some. I know that some just cannot stomach any examination or confrontation and see it as "unloving", but who then has love for the duped, the disappointed and the disgusted? The article quotes Titus 1:11-- *They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.*

rgod -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 12:10:52 PM)
"Why, then, is there no large-scale effort among Bible-believing evangelicals to expose, denounce, refute, and silence these false teachers? After all, that is what Scripture commands church leaders to do when we encounter purveyors of soul-destroying substitutes for the true gospel ..." The above is a quote from John MacArthur's article that Fritz posted here: http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4767789 TBN primarily features pentacostal and charismatic doctrine. In some respects, this is not so different from the other channels run by other denominations. However, when it comes to the prosperity gospel teaching, I personally think that is not just a difference in the interpretation of basic doctrine, but is an entirely different gospel all together. A note however. If you examine their line up - or catch it at odd hours (or even sometimes during the day) - you see other speakers that teach a more conservative doctrine. While it seems that Paula White's and Creflo Dollar are permanent fixtures, there is also regular programming by people like Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, Billy Graham's (his classic crusades series), Charles Stanley, Dr. Michael Youseff, Jay Sekulow (from the ACLJ), and more. I'm not making any comments about any of these particular ministries. But I do wonder if the silence in evangelical communities concerning some of these ministries on TBN or even TBN itself might have something to do with the amount of power and money the network has. If you upset the Crouch's, you've probably greatly hindered your chance at expanding your ministry - and I think many ministers want to do that. Plus, I think no one wants to be the one to "cast the first stone" lest they find those stones being hurled back at them at some point in the future.

rcjames -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 12:48:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rgod "Why, then, is there no large-scale effort among Bible-believing evangelicals to expose, denounce, refute, and silence these false teachers? After all, that is what Scripture commands church leaders to do when we encounter purveyors of soul-destroying substitutes for the true gospel ..." I think there is sufficient Scripture to denounce, refute, and expose false teachings; but to proactivily silence them, I cannot support from Scripture. Thanks RC

sirwintery -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 2:27:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: rgod "Why, then, is there no large-scale effort among Bible-believing evangelicals to expose, denounce, refute, and silence these false teachers? After all, that is what Scripture commands church leaders to do when we encounter purveyors of soul-destroying substitutes for the true gospel ..." I think there is sufficient Scripture to denounce, refute, and expose false teachings; but to proactivily silence them, I cannot support from Scripture. Thanks RC Those actually _are_ pretty good ways to silence them, which many are not interested in. Ceasing to invite them around to speak is another good one.

themoodyexperience -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 3:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirwintery quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: rgod "Why, then, is there no large-scale effort among Bible-believing evangelicals to expose, denounce, refute, and silence these false teachers? After all, that is what Scripture commands church leaders to do when we encounter purveyors of soul-destroying substitutes for the true gospel ..." I think there is sufficient Scripture to denounce, refute, and expose false teachings; but to proactivily silence them, I cannot support from Scripture. Thanks RC Those actually _are_ pretty good ways to silence them, which many are not interested in. Ceasing to invite them around to speak is another good one. Not sending them any money is another good one.

rgod -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 4:55:06 PM)
I agree that people can choose to not send them money or invite them to speak. But the problem is that the people are deceived. Like wolves in sheep's clothing, these "ministers" prey on the people's ignorance of the bible. So they come and say - "Let's look to Jesus!" And the people follow. But then, they present a different Jesus. A rich Jesus. A Jesus who curses you and your family if you do not give in every offering. A Jesus who hates the poor and loves the rich. A Jesus who loves the haughty and hates the humble. A Jesus who loves you more if you have certain spiritual gifts. These types of ministries flood poor communities and like locusts, they consume what little the people have and leaving the people feeling ashamed and guilty for their lack and confused as to why they too are not rich after they've given so much. People have a need, they have faith, and many for whatever reason, do not have a sound biblical foundation. Along with the people who have needs, there are some who are just materialistic. I can not tell you how many times I've visited churches only to have them ask business owners to bring checks of $100 or $200 dollars to the altar so that I will get a "miracle blessing" or a "miracle anointing" on my business. At one church, there were three people who said they were prophets. You had to pay them to pray for you and to give you "a word from God." I think it was something like $137 dollars (there was some numerological meaning to the numbers). I've been in churches where people had to get up, walk to a microphone and announce how much they were giving. I once went to a church where this nonsense went on for 40 minutes - I got up and walked out and it was still going on. (Actually I stayed 39 minutes too long.) Or churches where you had to get in one line if you were giving x amount of dollars and another line if you were giving y amount. Foolishness and a fleecing of the flock. The same people that are being deceived in this way in their local churches are the people who are supporting the Mike Murdochs, Creflo Dollars, and the Paula Whites of the world. They are the viewership of TBN. And having spoken to a number of people who adhere to this, they are seriously deceived. Along with this, there are people from every stripe - evangelical to charismatic - who know the gospel very well, and know this is a lie. But that are silent because they profit from it. They don't let themselves think too much about the little grandma in a little town in Iowa is giving the last of her grocery money because she is afraid that if she doesn't - her children will be cursed. Or the woman in some village half-way across the world who has scraped together a few coins to give to these mighty ministries. Many just want their ministry to grow, they want the money, they want the fame and they are willing to get into bed with whoever can give it them. So as long as their show is being beamed across the planet, they compromise. This isn't everyone, but this does happen.

themoodyexperience -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 5:02:11 PM)
Amen!

rcjames -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 6:42:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rgod I agree that people can choose to not send them money or invite them to speak. But the problem is that the people are deceived. Like wolves in sheep's clothing, these "ministers" prey on the people's ignorance of the bible. So they come and say - "Let's look to Jesus!" And the people follow. But then, they present a different Jesus. A rich Jesus. A Jesus who curses you and your family if you do not give in every offering. A Jesus who hates the poor and loves the rich. A Jesus who loves the haughty and hates the humble. A Jesus who loves you more if you have certain spiritual gifts. These types of ministries flood poor communities and like locusts, they consume what little the people have and leaving the people feeling ashamed and guilty for their lack and confused as to why they too are not rich after they've given so much. And whose fault is it if they believe a lie? Each of those (Both false teachers and those who believe the falsity) will have to answer for their own error. Thanks RC

rgod -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/27/2010 7:39:20 PM)
I agree that the false teachers will have to answer for what they've taught - I can think of some verses that talk about that. I can also think of verses where a person who believes a lie because of their own lust (in this case for material possessions) would be held accountable for that - because in essence that person is trading in the truth for a lie because God writes on our hearts the knowledge of him. But if a person truly doesn't know (and I've seen lots of evidence of people who've been taken by these people - particularly people limited mental ability) - people who love what little of Jesus that they know, but who have been deceived - what verses say that they will have to answer for that? And, what is the penalty?

rcjames -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/28/2010 8:28:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rgod But if a person truly doesn't know (and I've seen lots of evidence of people who've been taken by these people - particularly people limited mental ability) - people who love what little of Jesus that they know, but who have been deceived - what verses say that they will have to answer for that? And, what is the penalty? (2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Each of us has to answer for what we have done (and Believe), there are no excuses. And I don't think that loving Jesus "A little bit" will get it. Scripture speaks to this; (Mat 22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Mat 22:38) This is the first and great commandment. (Mat 22:39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mat 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Being a Christian is akin to being pregnant; one either is or they ain't. Now having said that, the WOF movement has many sincere Believers that follow along with it. Giving all of one's money to some huckster, or desiring to be wealthy will not in and of itself disqualifiy someone from being a Christian. Thanks RC

rgod -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/28/2010 9:56:35 AM)
I agree that 2 Co 5:10 is applicable here. quote: And I don't think that loving Jesus "A little bit" will get it. Scripture speaks to this; I didn't mean that people loved "Jesus a little bit." What I said was that there are some people who love Jesus - but they are painted a picture of Christ that is not true. Therefore, they love "what little of Jesus that they know but have been deceived." They might know Him as savior - from what I've heard of WOF - they don't negate this point. But because of the erroneous teaching, many WOF followers do not know him as humble or as loving them regardless of their income. Many give because they have a strong desire to be obedient to what the Word says. They don't know that the Word has been twisted. Yet, they love and trust what little of Him they know. quote: Now having said that, the WOF movement has many sincere Believers that follow along with it. Giving all of one's money to some huckster, or desiring to be wealthy will not in and of itself disqualify someone from being a Christian. Agreed.

themoodyexperience -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/28/2010 9:56:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames Now having said that, the WOF movement has many sincere Believers that follow along with it. Giving all of one's money to some huckster, or desiring to be wealthy will not in and of itself disqualifiy someone from being a Christian. Thanks RC I have no idea where this was ever implied. In fact, I do since a sincere hunger for God in most of the people who are duped, which makes the actions of the wolves all the more disgusting. They may be guilty of a lack of discernment, but I don't doubt their salvation. I personally would never send any money to any of these hucksters in a desire to get wealthy. How does that work? Ha. 'I want to get rich, so I'll send my money to someone else.' You don't even get a return, like the stock market. The other guy simply has your money. What a scam.

Law-n-Gospel -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (2/28/2010 11:00:35 AM)
quote: Now having said that, the WOF movement has many sincere Believers. I went to a WOF church as a babe in Christ, but it didnt last long as i grew in the knowledge of the Word coupled with the Spirits leading me out of that mess, and adding the fact that i just didnt know any better. If a person continues on in the false doctrine that is the WOF for years on end, and desiring wealth and throwing good money after bad, then i would discount the reality of their salvation. To believe that a person can have been saved and yet follow false doctrines their whole life shows a low view of the Holy spirits power.

Soxfan -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/1/2010 9:27:39 AM)
Finally had a chance to read the entire article. Praise God for Bereans like brother MacArthur! We need more believers standing up to those that PERVERT the Word of God for financial gain. The term cesspool is too kind of a word to use for the garbage spewed on (T)he (B)lasphemers (N)etwork, Daystar, GodTV, etc

rcjames -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/1/2010 9:50:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirwintery MacArthur makes a large point that failing to silence self-indulgent and false teachers is a bad witness that can and does injure the faith of some. I know that some just cannot stomach any examination or confrontation and see it as "unloving", but who then has love for the duped, the disappointed and the disgusted? The article quotes Titus 1:11-- *They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.* And just how does the guy MacAuthur suggest that they be silenced? Thanks RC

sirwintery -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/1/2010 10:03:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: sirwintery MacArthur makes a large point that failing to silence self-indulgent and false teachers is a bad witness that can and does injure the faith of some. I know that some just cannot stomach any examination or confrontation and see it as "unloving", but who then has love for the duped, the disappointed and the disgusted? The article quotes Titus 1:11-- *They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.* And just how does the guy MacAuthur suggest that they be silenced? Thanks RC I'm not "the guy MacAuthur" so I won't pretend to answer for him.

Law-n-Gospel -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/1/2010 10:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soxfan Finally had a chance to read the entire article. Praise God for Bereans like brother MacArthur! We need more believers standing up to those that PERVERT the Word of God for financial gain. The term cesspool is too kind of a word to use for the garbage spewed on (T)he (B)lasphemers (N)etwork, Daystar, GodTV, etc A to the MEN!

themoodyexperience -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/6/2010 5:36:43 PM)
Not someone usually know for a prosperity message, NAR superstar Patricia King is seeing green prosperity angels. Patricia King's Green Angel Patricia King gets a visit from a green 'prosperity' angel and finds a mint green feather on her couch. quote: "Because, as we know, the mint sometimes speaks of the place where money is kept." sigh

Kath -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/6/2010 5:49:31 PM)
Unbelievable. [>:] It just makes me sick to read something like that.

rawr.ben -> RE: Unholy Trinity: Outraged at TBN's Brazen False Teaching (3/14/2010 5:36:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience Not someone usually know for a prosperity message, NAR superstar Patricia King is seeing green prosperity angels. Patricia King's Green Angel Patricia King gets a visit from a green 'prosperity' angel and finds a mint green feather on her couch. quote: "Because, as we know, the mint sometimes speaks of the place where money is kept." sigh "Mint" means you have bad breath, as do most wolves, Patty.

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