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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 8:37:20 AM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
People flock to Word of Faith churches because they are drawn to the promise of unparalleled prosperity and good health. But they don't see that people have swallowed the cyanide and are now sick and dying because the promises are empty.
does God make a promise he does not keep?
i thought you believed in healing?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 8:42:52 AM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
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From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
does God make a promise he does not keep?
i thought you believed in healing?
God never promises to heal us physically, keep us from all harm and sickness. He promises to never leave us nor forsake us.
Actually, Jesus tells us we will suffer persecution, separation of loved ones, death, etc.. because of Him. Things which scores of our brothers and sisters in the Lord around the world are right now experiencing.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/28/2008 8:48:59 AM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 9:06:21 AM
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howling wind
Posts: 44
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From: Texas, y'all...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
We are seeing more and more an acceptance of heretical Word of Faith teachings in mainline denominational church circles recently. Doctrines that promote a wildly distorted perception of what it means to be a Christian.
The growing influence of the Word of Faith movement is one of the greatest threats to Christianity from within. I am especially concerned by the striking similarity between occult ideas popularized by secular authors like Rhonda Byrne, author of The Secret, and the writings of mega-church and TV preacher Joel Osteen.
Although Byrne and Osteen have noteworthy differences, they agree that you are the Master of the Universe, and the Genie is there to serve you.
For Bryne, the Genie is the 'law of attraction'. For Joel Osteen, it is the Word of Faith. Osteen writes, "The moment you speak something out, you give birth to it. This is a spiritual principle, and it works whether what you are saying is good or bad, positive or negative."
In Word of Faith theology, this principle is supposedly so powerful that even God is bound by it. But to make this point, Word of Faith teachers have to twist God's Word. For instance, Osteen claims that "Scripture tells us that we are to 'call the things that are not as if they already were.'"
However, Romans 4:17 says that it is actually God - not us - "who calls things that are not as though they were."
Tragically, Joel Osteen isn't the only Word of Faith teacher who twists Scripture in order to advance dangerous doctrines. A host of prominent preachers have employed similar techniques and they are plunging Christianity into an ever-deepening crisis.
People flock to Word of Faith churches because they are drawn to the promise of unparalleled prosperity and good health. But they don't see that people have swallowed the cyanide and are now sick and dying because the promises are empty.
Word of Faith teachers operate using the outward trappings of Christianity and millions have fallen for a shell of the truth, stuffed with a lie.
I remember one famous WoF preacher - not sure who it exactly was, but Charles Capps comes to mind - saying that you speak death into existence even by saying "That tickled me to death." 
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 10:00:45 AM
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Soxfan
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My pastor had a sermon the last few weeks about true biblical prosperity. I wish I could post it somehow.
It was so spot on and completely opposite of how these "pulpit pimps" define prosperity.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 10:20:20 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
God never promises to heal us physically, keep us from all harm and sickness. He promises to never leave us nor forsake us
(Jas 5:14) Are any among you sick? They should send for the church elders, who will pray for them and rub olive oil on them in the name of the Lord.
(Jas 5:15) This prayer made in faith will heal the sick; the Lord will restore them to health, and the sins they have committed will be forgiven.
Looks like a promise to heal to this ole country boy.
Now I doubt you will see much of this on TV with the WOF folks, because the Word says for Elders to do the praying, and I ain't never seen a Church Elder on WOF (nor much in the way of CHurch either).
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/28/2008 10:27:46 AM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 10:59:22 AM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Jas 5:14) Are any among you sick? They should send for the church elders, who will pray for them and rub olive oil on them in the name of the Lord.
(Jas 5:15) This prayer made in faith will heal the sick; the Lord will restore them to health, and the sins they have committed will be forgiven.
Looks like a promise to heal to this ole country boy.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
This is indeed a difficult passage, because on the surface it appears to categorically state that healing will come if certain steps are followed. James said if anyone is sick he should call on the elders to pray for him and I agree 100% that we should always do this as the Scripture demonstrates but not loose faith or become discouraged if God's will is different to ours.
We should always trust that God's will for our lives is going to be best. Despite the clear words of this passage, as always, we cannot focus on just one passage and base our theology on this alone. We must always take all passages that are relevant to the topic and look at them as a whole to get the full picture of what the Bible tells us.
In the very early period of the New Testament elders existed. They were the recognized leaders of the Church. Not only were they instituted, but also elders were responsible to do certain things that not every member of the Church was.
This prayer for healing is one of the things that elders were to do, and I would say that the elders to be called would require the gift of healing for consistent healing every single time. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 not all had the power to heal. This also leads us back to the question of whether the gift of healing is as prevalent today as it was when establishing the Church.
The Bible states not all have the power to do miracles or heal, and Jesus said the reason for all the miracles was so people would believe and God's kingdom on earth would be established. Today the Church is well established and therefore this reason for the constant miracle on top of miracle no longer exists.
This explains why today most cannot indisputably say that they know someone with the gift of healing, again leaving healing to God's Sovereign will and trusting Him always.
The Bible teaches that there will be death, illness, and affliction. If this verse is taken at face value, then obedient Christians could call the elders, be anointed, and be healed every time. This would cover illness and affliction, but James also knew that there would be times of such affliction.
The opening chapter of James calls on us to count it as joy even when we have various trials and afflictions. Even the apostles were evidently unable to prolong their own lives by having such anointing.
So the Bible does not lead us to expect that all illnesses will be removed until the time described in Revelation 21-22, which speaks of no more crying and no more pain and no more death.
Equally undeniable is this: The most sincere Christians in all ages have tried to apply this verse literally and universally, and still many died from illnesses and there are no credible claims that all illnesses can always be cured. When I say no credible, that rules out most of the flamboyant TV faith healers, who themselves cannot sustain a proof that they can heal all and every illness.
It is the universal experience of Christianity that even when we pray, even when we pray in faith, even when we have the elders standing with us in prayer, still sometimes, God does not always heal physically.
It is true that he always answers prayer and that he ultimately heals. In fact, the word may mean, "will make the sick person whole," and that would certainly happen if an ill person died and at the second coming of Christ when "this mortal shall have put on immortality," 1 Corinthians 15:54. However, that is not what we are praying for when we ask for God's healing.
The best way to understand this passage is to acknowledge before we apply it that it must be interpreted harmoniously with other passages in Scripture. To do so, means that we understand that God only heals those whom he wants to heal according to His will.
We may pray in faith, and we may anoint with oil, but all of this must be submitted to God's will. He does not heal at our whim or verbal command. He heals wonderfully in accord with his will. This verse gives confidence that God may heal, but it should never be thought of as guaranteeing healing simply because steps are followed.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 11:39:47 AM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
does God make a promise he does not keep?
i thought you believed in healing?
God never promises to heal us physically, keep us from all harm and sickness. He promises to never leave us nor forsake us.
Actually, Jesus tells us we will suffer persecution, separation of loved ones, death, etc.. because of Him. Things which scores of our brothers and sisters in the Lord around the world are right now experiencing.
including word of faith brothers and sisters "they" seem to be seperated from the rest of the church if you people had your way.
i watch a show about moses last night on Christian tv, and some things stood out to me, one was this, everyone seemed to want to murmur and complain against moses who was choosen by God to lead his people, why they were jeolous?? but it dawned on me, the people did not expect that moses would be a leader from God, because he was diffrent then them, he did not live as a slave, like them, he was raised as a egyptian, not a slave, and would the church be willing to receive a murder as a leader today? seems as if God uses people that his people would not receive, ie like Jesus, Paul, Moses
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 11:53:47 AM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
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pray4all,
So you don't have a problem with someone's teachings being outright unbiblical/heretical?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 11:59:42 AM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Jas 5:14) Are any among you sick? They should send for the church elders, who will pray for them and rub olive oil on them in the name of the Lord.
(Jas 5:15) This prayer made in faith will heal the sick; the Lord will restore them to health, and the sins they have committed will be forgiven.
Looks like a promise to heal to this ole country boy.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
This is indeed a difficult passage, because on the surface it appears to categorically state that healing will come if certain steps are followed. James said if anyone is sick he should call on the elders to pray for him and I agree 100% that we should always do this as the Scripture demonstrates but not loose faith or become discouraged if God's will is different to ours.
We should always trust that God's will for our lives is going to be best. Despite the clear words of this passage, as always, we cannot focus on just one passage and base our theology on this alone. We must always take all passages that are relevant to the topic and look at them as a whole to get the full picture of what the Bible tells us.
The best way to understand this passage is to acknowledge before we apply it that it must be interpreted harmoniously with other passages in Scripture. To do so, means that we understand that God only heals those whom he wants to heal according to His will.
We may pray in faith, and we may anoint with oil, but all of this must be submitted to God's will. He does not heal at our whim or verbal command. He heals wonderfully in accord with his will. This verse gives confidence that God may heal, but it should never be thought of as guaranteeing healing simply because steps are followed.
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 12:01:14 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
pray4all,
So you don't have a problem with someone's teachings being outright unbiblical/heretical?
because you say it is so does not make it so
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 12:11:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
pray4all,
So you don't have a problem with someone's teachings being outright unbiblical/heretical?
because you say it is so does not make it so
Have you even studied/looked at all the video, audio, written documentation provided? All it takes is a Bible and their teachings, failed prophecies.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 12:13:00 PM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 12:45:01 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 12:49:54 PM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
Jesus was authenticating His claims by doing miracles.
And are you asking why all people don't receive healing today? Often times people are physically healed when they place their faith in Christ - but this is not always the case.
Sometimes it is God’s will to heal, sometimes it is not. The Apostle John gives us the proper perspective: “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15).
God still performs miracles. God still heals people. Sickness, disease, pain, and death are still realities in this world. Unless the Lord returns in the next 50 years or so, almost everyone who is alive today will die, and the vast majority of them (Christians included) will die as the result of a physical problem (disease, sickness, injury). It is not always God’s will to heal us physically.
Ultimately, our full physical healing awaits us in Heaven. In Heaven, there will be no more pain, sickness, disease, suffering, or death (Revelation chapter 21). We all need to be less preoccupied with our physical condition in this world, and be a little more preoccupied with our spiritual condition (Romans 12:1-2). Then, we can focus our hearts on heaven and when we will no longer have to deal with physical problems, Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 1:20:08 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1479
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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pray4all:
Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson-Tada?
She has more love and obedience to God in her pinky than I probably have in my whole body.
She is a quadrapeligic (sp) and for years went to faith healers. When she wasn't healed, God revealed to her that He wanted to use her condition to glorify Him.
Do you believe that God can use someone like that to do His work? You can't believe that if you believe that it's God's will that EVERYBODY is healed.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 2:10:31 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 1090
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
How do you know that Jesus healed EVERYBODY? When he went to the Pool of Bethesda, how many people did he step over that needed healing?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:14:16 PM
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rlj
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quote:
The Bible states not all have the power to do miracles or heal, and Jesus said the reason for all the miracles was so people would believe and God's kingdom on earth would be established. Today the Church is well established and therefore this reason for the constant miracle on top of miracle no longer exists.
Can you please provide the verse for this? It seems to be in conflict with what Paul writes here:
quote:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
There is only One that is perfect and he hasn't come back yet.
Also with what Jesus says here:
quote:
John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(All quotes NKJV)
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:34:42 PM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
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From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Can you please provide the verse for this? It seems to be in conflict with what Paul writes here:
quote:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
There is only One that is perfect and he hasn't come back yet.
I have more than stated my position on healing and miracles on this board. Not only in the 79 pages of this thread, but in the literally thousands of posts I have made on this topic.
What is being said is that the foundation has been established, we have the full Word of God, and yet some today believe we are still lacking and therefore still waiting for something greater, something newer, some RHEMA.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Also with what Jesus says here:
quote:
John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(All quotes NKJV)
Some have tried to interpret this passage as a carte blanche from Jesus promising His agreement to whatever we ask. But this is misreading Jesus’ intent.
Notice, first, that Jesus is speaking to His apostles, and the promise is for them. After Jesus’ ascension, the apostles were given power to perform miracles as they spread the gospel (Acts 5:12). Second, Jesus twice uses the phrase "in My name." This indicates the basis for the apostles’ prayers, but it also implies that whatever they prayed for should be consonant with Jesus’ will. A selfish prayer, for example, or one motivated by greed, cannot be said to be prayed in Jesus’ name.
We pray in faith, but faith means that we trust God. We trust Him to do what is best and to know what is best. When we consider all the Bible’s teaching on prayer (not just the promise given to the apostles), we learn that God may exercise His power in response to our prayer, or He may surprise us with a different course of action. In His wisdom He always does what is best (Romans 8:28).
Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world - cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death.
If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die - because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one."
What is best for us is not always physical wholeness. Paul the apostle prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, but God said, "No" because He wanted Paul to understand he didn’t need to be physically whole to experience the sustaining grace of God. Through the experience, Paul grew in humility and in the understanding of God’s mercy and power (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
The testimony of Joni Eareckson Tada provides a modern example of what God can do through physical tragedy. As a teenager, Joni suffered a diving accident that left her a quadriplegic. In her book Joni, she relates how she visited faith healers many times and prayed desperately for the healing which never came.
Finally, she accepted her condition as God’s will, and she writes, "The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that God doesn’t want everyone well. He uses our problems for His glory and our good"
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:40:09 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
How do you know that Jesus healed EVERYBODY? When he went to the Pool of Bethesda, how many people did he step over that needed healing?
let me rephrase that for you Jesus healed everyone that came to him to be healed, I know that because it tells me so in the b-i-b-l-e, don't get me started sighing now. did not know it said he was stepping over people at that pool, guess they just did not ask him.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:44:42 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
The Bible states not all have the power to do miracles or heal, and Jesus said the reason for all the miracles was so people would believe and God's kingdom on earth would be established. Today the Church is well established and therefore this reason for the constant miracle on top of miracle no longer exists.
Can you please provide the verse for this? It seems to be in conflict with what Paul writes here:
quote:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
There is only One that is perfect and he hasn't come back yet.
Also with what Jesus says here:
quote:
John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(All quotes NKJV)
quote:
Today the Church is well established and therefore this reason for the constant miracle on top of miracle no longer exists
where does it say that in the b-i-b-l-e? my bible says God is not willing that any should perish
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:47:09 PM
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earthless
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
where does it say that in the b-i-b-l-e? my bible says God is not willing that any should perish
Yes, that's referring to salvation - not absolute physical healing while in these unglorified bodies.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:47:59 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
pray4all:
Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson-Tada?
She has more love and obedience to God in her pinky than I probably have in my whole body.
She is a quadrapeligic (sp) and for years went to faith healers. When she wasn't healed, God revealed to her that He wanted to use her condition to glorify Him.
Do you believe that God can use someone like that to do His work? You can't believe that if you believe that it's God's will that EVERYBODY is healed.
maybe you should pump up your love and obedience factor, especially if you notice you are lacking in it.
so then she got revelation knowledge? apart from the word of God?????
i believe God can cause a donkey to speak for him, not implying that that woman is a donkey of course
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:49:10 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 269
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
There is only One that is perfect and he hasn't come back yet.
WOF worship a false god who does as they bid. In the relm of politics. liberals worship a government who does as they bid. Both are idolatrous and against the Bible.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:50:11 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
where does it say that in the b-i-b-l-e? my bible says God is not willing that any should perish
Yes, that's referring to salvation - not absolute physical healing while in these unglorified bodies.
i believe you reffered to acts which was lukes account of the end of matthew and the end of mark, which was Jesus confirming the words spoken was truth by the signs following ie the sick being healed in the name of Jesus
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