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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 5:11:38 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Oh, in my bible.  No, for whatever reason I hadn't heard of the term WOF until I came to this board a couple months ago. I've been researching alot of things and have heard some statements about WOF on other threads. For all I knew it was just speaking things into existance. 
Not all WoF are as bad as people here portray them to be.
The so-called leaders aren't the leaders of each individual church.
I'm not defending or going to defend those leaders because, honestly, I don't have time to listen to or watch every little thing they do.
Most of us are just normal people who believe in the same Jesus (contrary to what some would say) as the rest of you. We are doing all we know to do just like everyone else. You may not agree with everything we do but that's ok. I am not taught or follow a false doctrine and I am not deceived. I read and study my Bible like everyone else and I hear the Holy Spirit. He corrects me when and if there is something I need to know or do differently. I trust His voice more than the voice of man.
And for the record...we don't believe we speak things into existence...at least most don't believe that. Some of the fringes do. We believe in speaking God's word which is a totally different thing. Most people speak God's word.
Also, we don't believe that a Christian will/should be a millionare or never be sick or suffer. Quite the contrary. Jesus said we would have test, trials and tribulations. I have personally heard many Wof teachers (not the big names that are out there) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM ever said that we should be "wealthy" or never be sick or suffer.
And, NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THEM ever said the blood atonement of Jesus wasn't enough. They all teach on the blood and what it did for us and what it means to us. We fully believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. All was needed. And we thank God for what He did for us through His Son, Jesus Christ and for the Holy Spirit sent to us to comfort, teach, guide, and everything else He does for us.
The ones that have visited my church have also never asked for money. Nor have they said you have to give to their ministry to be blessed. Yes, we are taught that God will bless us as we give...but that is not the motive for our giving. We give out of love and in worship to Him. We are cheerful givers. Even if we never received a blessing, most I know would still give. It's not about the money like some would have you believe. Most of us do not "love money". Sure, money is nice. But the main thing is to use it to help others and bless them. And to help spead His word. It does take money to do that and to keep a church building running. Pay bills, etc. And support missionaries.
So see, most of us are out there doing what many of you do. We just get a bad rap because of what some have done and how they have portrayed us.
And my pastor has, from the pulpit, cautioned and warned us when he hears "the leaders" doing or saying something that he believes is not right. The same holds true for any denomination. No one has everything right. We walk in the light of what we know. Really, it is up to each of us to grow in the knowledge of Him and not leave it to man to do for us.
Spend time in His word, study it, spend time in His presence, rest in Him, and wait on Him. That's where all the answers are. In Him.
I just want to say that I will not defend or debate anyone on anything I have said. I have read the whole thread and know what is said. Everything that can be said has been said. No need to rehash it all. If you notice I do not post much. And I will only post as I feel led to do. I'm sorry if you think that is a cop out. But it is the way it is. We will just have to agree to disagree on some things.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 5:50:40 PM
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4ChristisLove
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/6/2008
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Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
< Message edited by 4ChristisLove -- 6/17/2008 5:56:51 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 6:29:14 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
Yes, WoF does believe in healing. Some say that we "blame" the person if they are not healed for lack of faith. And, sadly, some do this, but not the majority of the people I know who are WoF. I do believe faith has a role but their are many factors involved. I cannot say why some are not healed. God knows and will do what needs to be done in His timing and in His way. I do not have all of the answers, but, neither does anyone else. I believe their are some things we are not meant to know and therefore we have to rely on Him in faith. We don't tell our children reasons for everything we do and neither does our Heavenly Father. When we need to know, He will tell us.
Just from reading the many threads on here, I find a lot of people actually have beliefs similar to WoF as far as healing and "prosperity". I don't think they even realize it  . One thread on "rich" and poor people really made me chuckle. The "rich" were being called out by someone, so to speak, and they didn't like it. They defended being wealthy. Some of those same ones have been on this thread denouncing our belief in prosperity. It was really quite humorous.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 7:58:49 PM
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FivePointer
Posts: 120
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain high
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quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
_____________________________
Electus ex exordium
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:13:47 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 726
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Say map4 your kidding right?  I find it very easy to take a passage or a verse from one place and get it to fit into something else.
As one person wrote you can take any two different passages of scripture and make it relate to the same idea. "Like Judas hung himself, go and do like wise". Which 99.9% of those who follow this seed or blessing or double anointing fall into this problem of that a verse here and a verse there all equals a false thought pattern.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:25:33 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
Please realize that I am sometimes not good at getting my thoughts across and I don't want any misunderstanding.
I can only speak for myself, what this means to me.
I do believe that God has promised us certain things in His Word and that all the answers we need can be found in His Word.
If I believe God has promised me something or if the Holy Spirit has showed me an answer in the Word, then, I believe I can speak what He has shown me with faith and confidence that it will come to pass. It is not me doing anything other than having faith in what He showed me. I am not speaking things into existence. Merely relying on and trusting Him to make the answer manifest, however that may be.
And when I say I speak the Word He has shown me, I mean that, when doubt tries to come...and it always does...I speak His word and focus on the answer instead of the problems. I do not deny that the problem is there. I just believe God if He has said He will povide an answer or a way out or whatever it may be. I do believe there is power in those words, because they are His and He has shown me the answer so I speak His word about the situation. We are told to meditate on His word day and night. Speaking it, or rehearsing it, is another way, for me, to meditate and build up my faith when it is weak.
If I just speak His word without faith or without truly believing, then I am just a bunch of hot air. I have to know that He spoke to me about the answer.
Sorry I can't say more...I have to go to my son's basketball game. If I am able I may add more later.
I hope you understand what I mean. Thanks!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 8:38:41 PM
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FivePointer
Posts: 120
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain high
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
We believe in speaking God's word
And what exactly does this mean to you?
Please realize that I am sometimes not good at getting my thoughts across and I don't want any misunderstanding.
I can only speak for myself, what this means to me.
I do believe that God has promised us certain things in His Word and that all the answers we need can be found in His Word.
If I believe God has promised me something or if the Holy Spirit has showed me an answer in the Word, then, I believe I can speak what He has shown me with faith and confidence that it will come to pass. It is not me doing anything other than having faith in what He showed me. I am not speaking things into existence. Merely relying on and trusting Him to make the answer manifest, however that may be.
And when I say I speak the Word He has shown me, I mean that, when doubt tries to come...and it always does...I speak His word and focus on the answer instead of the problems. I do not deny that the problem is there. I just believe God if He has said He will povide an answer or a way out or whatever it may be. I do believe there is power in those words, because they are His and He has shown me the answer so I speak His word about the situation. We are told to meditate on His word day and night. Speaking it, or rehearsing it, is another way, for me, to meditate and build up my faith when it is weak.
If I just speak His word without faith or without truly believing, then I am just a bunch of hot air. I have to know that He spoke to me about the answer.
Sorry I can't say more...I have to go to my son's basketball game. If I am able I may add more later.
I hope you understand what I mean. Thanks!
Thanks for your answer.
_____________________________
Electus ex exordium
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 8:17:29 PM
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4ChristisLove
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
quote:
ORIGINAL: 4ChristisLove
Thank you for sharing because really I know little about the WOF. I know one of the T.V. pastors (my husband really likes) and has been bashed I'm sure of being WOF. Everything I ever heard him say made sense to me or didn't seem "off". BUT I also heard him say something that didn't line up with scripture on one of the video's posted. So, it would really take tons of research on my part on him because obviously I've seen a few of his preachings here and there.
A question that did come to mind because I was reading about WOF online just now. Is believing you can be healed from a sickness WOF? I would have always thought by faith & through Jesus you can be healed. These are things that I have never thought of before or categorized it as word of faith.
edited for spelling correction
Yes, WoF does believe in healing. Some say that we "blame" the person if they are not healed for lack of faith. And, sadly, some do this, but not the majority of the people I know who are WoF. I do believe faith has a role but their are many factors involved. I cannot say why some are not healed. God knows and will do what needs to be done in His timing and in His way. I do not have all of the answers, but, neither does anyone else. I believe their are some things we are not meant to know and therefore we have to rely on Him in faith. We don't tell our children reasons for everything we do and neither does our Heavenly Father. When we need to know, He will tell us.
Just from reading the many threads on here, I find a lot of people actually have beliefs similar to WoF as far as healing and "prosperity". I don't think they even realize it . One thread on "rich" and poor people really made me chuckle. The "rich" were being called out by someone, so to speak, and they didn't like it. They defended being wealthy. Some of those same ones have been on this thread denouncing our belief in prosperity. It was really quite humorous.
I appreciate you sharing with me!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 9:46:32 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 680
Joined: 1/23/2006
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those of you who think "prosperity" means money, wealth, cars, expensive clothes, etc.. are wrong and it is blasphemy.
You might have all the riches in the world and you may lose your soul. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul.
Jesus said you cannot serve me and mammon.
Please, give a man God's peace and he wont have to go for years and years of psycho-therapy spending thousands of dollars on humanistic 'self esteem' classes - meanwhile, popping pills that are supposed to calm him, yet one side affect is it can possibly cause suicide.
God does not have to do a thing for me, yet I will serve Him. God made me for HIS pleasure, not the other way around,, However, my Heavenly Father loves me and promised to care for my needs. God has blessed me with a few wants too..
But that material junk will trip you up if thats all you think your Heavenly Father is... your personal Santa Claus. Thats totall blasphemy against our Holy Wonderful marvelous Father and Jesus Christ - King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
does anything remember Jesus hung on a cross, totally humiliated and beatean and bruised for our sins? Does anyone remember the pain and torture Jesus went thru - being scourged, and beaten for our sins and sicknesses. Does anyone remember the wrath of the Father totally crushing Jesus for our sins, the total wrath of God crushed him. bruised him.
but no, people nowadays want a Santa Claus for a savior. Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the thought of our glorious spotless jesus hanging on that cross ought to bring you on your knees pleading for God's mercy, which is WHAT WE ALL DESERVE -- not cars, money, wealth and this WOF junk.
but no, you want to go around and cluck like a chicken, roll around the aisles, getting Benny Hinn to slap you with his coat and make you fall down like dominos, and you make fun of the precious Holy Spirit who you are just there to get your ha ha ha jollies from,,, HOW AWFUL OF YOU!!!! the Holy Spriit is HOLY!!! HOLY HOLY HOLY.. He does not make you do stupid tricks. The Holy Spirit is dignified, not like you see this crazy stuff going around and naming it the HOLY SPIRIT!!! Please people, find what the Word of God says about the attributes of the Holy spirit.. you wont find Him capable of all this crazy WOF stuff you see like with Benny Hinn and the florida outpouring whatever it is, and the Toronto Blessing. ALL HERESY AGAINST OUR HOLY AND GLORIOUS GOD!!
repent people!!! get down on your knees and repent and cry out to God for mercy.
< Message edited by IMA_CHRISTIAN -- 6/23/2008 9:54:43 AM >
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 1:44:07 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
those of you who think "prosperity" means money, wealth, cars, expensive clothes, etc.. are wrong and it is blasphemy.
I don't believe this is what prosperity means either. Neither am I taught that.
quote:
You might have all the riches in the world and you may lose your soul. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul.
All my riches are in Him. Since I don't have all the riches of "the world", but in Him, then I guess I am ok.
quote:
Jesus said you cannot serve me and mammon.
My church serves Jesus and is led by the Holy Spirit. Money is not our God
quote:
Please, give a man God's peace and he wont have to go for years and years of psycho-therapy spending thousands of dollars on humanistic 'self esteem' classes - meanwhile, popping pills that are supposed to calm him, yet one side affect is it can possibly cause suicide.
To my knowledge, no one at my church does this. However, I have many friends of different denominations...some of them do do these things. Sad.quote:
God does not have to do a thing for me, yet I will serve Him. God made me for HIS pleasure, not the other way around,, However, my Heavenly Father loves me and promised to care for my needs. God has blessed me with a few wants too..
Amen. Praise God. He is so good to us!
quote:
But that material junk will trip you up if thats all you think your Heavenly Father is... your personal Santa Claus. Thats totall blasphemy against our Holy Wonderful marvelous Father and Jesus Christ - King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Amen. I totally agree.
quote:
does anything remember Jesus hung on a cross, totally humiliated and beatean and bruised for our sins? Does anyone remember the pain and torture Jesus went thru - being scourged, and beaten for our sins and sicknesses. Does anyone remember the wrath of the Father totally crushing Jesus for our sins, the total wrath of God crushed him. bruised him.
Yes, I remember. My pastor also reminds us of this quite often.quote:
but no, people nowadays want a Santa Claus for a savior. Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the thought of our glorious spotless jesus hanging on that cross ought to bring you on your knees pleading for God's mercy, which is WHAT WE ALL DESERVE -- not cars, money, wealth and this WOF junk.
Agree. Cars, money and wealth are not what it is all about. So, not all WoF teach junk.
Please don't make the mistake of attributing to most what a few do. None that I know worship at the altar of money and things. If we are blessed with things, great. If not, oh well. We go on loving and serving our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
quote:
but no, you want to go around and cluck like a chicken, roll around the aisles, getting Benny Hinn to slap you with his coat and make you fall down like dominos, and you make fun of the precious Holy Spirit who you are just there to get your ha ha ha jollies from,,, HOW AWFUL OF YOU!!!! the Holy Spriit is HOLY!!! HOLY HOLY HOLY.. He does not make you do stupid tricks. The Holy Spirit is dignified, not like you see this crazy stuff going around and naming it the HOLY SPIRIT!!! Please people, find what the Word of God says about the attributes of the Holy spirit.. you wont find Him capable of all this crazy WOF stuff you see like with Benny Hinn and the florida outpouring whatever it is, and the Toronto Blessing. ALL HERESY AGAINST OUR HOLY AND GLORIOUS GOD!!
We do indeed serve a Holy God. I am led by and listen to the Holy Spirit and not man.
quote:
repent people!!! get down on your knees and repent and cry out to God for mercy.
I have repented of my sins. They were just not things you have attributed here to me because I happen to be Wof.
The following is not to any particular person. Just something that has been on my heart to share.
Some have said we don't believe in the blood atonement of Jesus.
Absolutely false. I believe the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is all that is needed. His blood atoned for my sins. And through His resurrection we have eternal life.
Some have said that we should never have sickness, problems, etc.
Absolutely false. Jesus said we would have test, trials and tribulations. We should expect them. I do not believe that we will never have sickness or problems in this life. Neither am I taught that (by my Rhema graduated pastor at that). We may differ on how we deal with those things. But not that we shall never experience them.
Some have said that we believe that all Christians should "be rich, wealthy" and usually attach "millions", expensive cars, nice houses, etc.
Absolutely false. Actually, it depends on what people define prospering to be. Hey, I live in a double wide mobile home. I am in debt. My husband and I have made some very foolish financial decisions. We are working on correcting them. But in spite of that, God is gracious and has supplied all of my needs. My hearts desire is to help people financially. Because I grew up so poor, I know what it is like. Been there done that. So, yes, I do pray for finances above and beyond what I need. But, not to fill my coffers...to help others and to give to help God's word be preached. It is not about me and what I can get. It is all about Him and what He wants me to do with my finances.
Let me add this so their is no misunderstanding. I do not think their is anything wrong with having nice things. What matters is where your heart is. As many have said, the "things" are not to have us and they are not what we should be seeking. We seek Him first, His kingdom. When He is first place in our lives then everything else will fall into place. I am not saying that we will never go through hard times. Because we will. We do.
It is how you handle yourself during those times that count. I choose to rely fully on Him knowing that He will work everything out for me. I can do nothing in and of myself. Without Him I am nothing. It is Him that lives in me and through me to do His good will. My house is built upon the solid rock, Jesus Christ. I have been through many storms, and my house has not been swept away. I am taught the Word of God at my church. And I read and study if for myself.
We, (my church) are not heretics. We believe in the same Jesus in the Bible that the rest of you do. The way we teach salvation is the same way I have read on here that most all of you do.
I do not believe that I "speak things into existence" the way you portray it to mean. I do, however, believe in speaking God's Word to and in my situation. I have seen many other non WoF on here say they do the same thing. When we have a problem, what do we do? We go to the Word and find the answer. Then, we pray, and speak the answer that we have found in His Word. We stand on the Word. If I miss it and am in error about something, I trust the Holy Spirit to show me. I hear His voice and He reveals through His Word the things I need to know. The Spirit will never disagree with the Word. The thing I don't think we should do is talk doubt and unbelief. If I have found an answer in God's word for my situation...that is what I should speak because He can't lie. If I go around speaking fear, doubt, etc. would I be nulligying my faith in Him and His Word? I am not saying that we deny their are problems. That is foolish. But, I put my focus on Him and His answers and not on my problem. That's all. I believe Him and have faith in Him that He will do what He says He will do. And I wait on Him. Waiting on Him perfects patience. Abraham had to wait a long time after being told he would be the father of many nations. But he believed God. That is all I do.
I do want to reiterate something...the key is believing His Word. I have to know in my spirit by the Holy Spirit that something is true. I can't just go around "confessing" things for the heck of it. I believe that is where a lot of people get into error. If the Holy Spirit doesn't make His Word alive to you, confessing a scripture won't work. If He has shown me the answer in scripture, then I believe I can pray it, confess it, however you want to describe it and it will happen.
< Message edited by map4 -- 6/23/2008 1:53:40 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 3:09:30 PM
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earthless
Posts: 2572
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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Map - what you just said outright contradicts the teachings of the leaders of the group (Word of Faith) you claim you belong to:
Benny Hinn, Paula White, T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, Morris Cerrullo, Kenneth Copeland, John Avazini, Rod Parsley, Juanita Bynum, Joyce Meyer, Paul Crouch, etc etc...
Perhaps it would be be beneficial to know why you consider yourself 'Word of Faith'.
< Message edited by earthless -- 6/23/2008 3:25:42 PM >
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:19:19 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 680
Joined: 1/23/2006
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MAP - you most likely are NOT Word of Faith (WOF).
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:51:29 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
Status: offline
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Earthless,
I do believe in health and "prosperity".
I do believe health is available to Christians, just like salvation. But, no, I do not know why all are not healed anymore than I know why all are not saved. I will be bluntly honest about that. I am not God and do not know why some are not healed. I suppose their could be many reasons.
If Jesus is our example, He told some "your faith has made you whole". Do I believe that everyone has to have the right amount of faith to be healed? No. But I do believe that for some faith does play a part. But I am not the judge of that. I can't see their heart or what the Holy Spirit may be speaking to them. Could He be telling some..."have faith"?
He also told some "go and sin no more" when healing them. Do I believe that sin is the cause of all sickness? No. But again, I cannot see what God sees. Could one be continuing in a particular sin that He has spoke to them about? Could that hinder their healing? Maybe in some cases it could be the reason.
I don't have all the answers. I do find it hard to believe that a loving Father's will would be for His children to suffer in sickness and pain. But many do. I personally believe it is His will that we walk in health. But I'm not saying that we won't ever be sick. It's how we deal with the pain and sickness when it comes that I believe you and I differ greatly on. Again, I do not know why some are not healed. I believe it is between them and God, there are some things we just don't know.
I also want to say, to be completely honest, that of those you mentioned in your post...I have listened to some of them only a few times, others more. Most, not in a while. I hardly ever watch Christian TV anymore. I have read some of their books. What I got from the ones I listened to, was not that we would never be sick, but that we didn't have to stay that way. That is my paraphrase. When they said something like "a believer should never be sick", I didn't take it to mean other than what I said. We don't have to stay that way. Maybe I just heard differently or something.
I didn't glean from the ones I heard or read that they were trying to make the ones who were not healed feel guilty about it. At least, I didn't take it that way. Maybe it's because I wasn't taught to make them feel guilty about it. But to try to help them and teach them what we believe the truth of His Word is. Maybe that's why I didn't take it that way but I can see how some would if they didn't understand what was being said. If some are putting guilt on others, that is wrong. But, also there are times when the truth makes us feel "guilty". But the scripture says there is therefore now no condemnaiton for those who are in Christ Jesus.
As far as prosperity, it does not mean that we will be filthy rich. Prosperity means more than money. It is everything that He has provided for us, peace, joy, love, etc.. But finances is a part of it. Does it mean that everyone should be millionares? No, of course not. And I do not agree with the ones who tell people "you have to give to me; give this amount;" etc. I am not against giving, but I do agree that some are wrong in the way they do. My pastor warns us against them, and he is a Rhema grad. I do believe that we can be blessed as we give, but that is not limited to money nor is it why we should give. I do believe in sowing and reaping...whatever it is...good or bad.
I also want to say something about Kenneth Copeland regarding "any man could have died on the cross" or whatever his exact quote was. You know the one.
I think I actually saw the broadcast of that show or maybe I read it in a book. I don't remember. But I do remember seeing it somewhere besides here.
I honestly did not think he meant that anyone could have died for us. I took from it that, while any man could die on a cross, because obviously that was done during that time in history....but, that only Jesus could have died as our Savior because He was the only one able to do that for us. In other words, any man could die on a cross, but not any man could do what Jesus did in dying on the cross. I was not left with the impression that KC was saying that anyone could have died on a cross for us. Not at all. I was left with a deeper love for our Savior knowing that He was the only one who could do what He did for us on the cross. His shed blood atoned for our sins. Him who knew no sin became sin for us. That is amazing to me. I still don't think we truly grasp what He did for us on the cross, in His death burial and resurrection.
I have personally heard many Wof teachers who have come to our church. Not one of them discounted the blood of Jesus being enough to atone for our sins. So, earthless, I do whole heartedly disgree with you in saying that Wof doesn't think His blood atonement was enough. That is nowhere near what I have read, heard, or been taught.
I am sure that there are things that we teach or do that you would consider heretical. There is nothing I can do about that. I know that my pastor hears the Holy Spirit. I trust him. And I hear the Holy Spirit also. If there is something that doesn't sit right with me, my pastor has an open door to discuss it at any time. He is strong in his beliefs but he nor anyone else can force anyone to believe anything. And, my pastor doesn't agree with all that "Wof preachers" do and say. He speaks about it from his pulpit. He acknowledges that their are Rhema grads who have "gone flaky" so to speak. But we are Wof. He does teach the importance of our words, that we can speak to our problems, etc. But, as I stated in my first post...you have to believe what you are saying. He talked about this just yesterday. Just confessing scripture won't do anything if the Holy Spirit hasn't made the Word alive to you. You have to believe it and have faith in God that He will bring it to pass. We are just to speak His Word, stand on it and believe. One important thing that needs to be said, we do not "demand" God to do any old thing we want. That is another lie about the majority of Wof people that I know. Everything has to be asked in His will which He has given us. Now, to be fair, I'm sure we disagree on exactly what His will is on some things.
Are some out there teaching it the wrong way? Yes, they are. But not the ones that I know.
earthless, I do not want to debate particulars with you. You are a much better debator than I could claim to be. That is not what I am here to do. There are some things we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only tell about the things that I know and have been taught. I cannot speak for every Wof person there is. In the end, I will only have to give an account for myself. That is not to say that we sit back and don't speak up for what is wrong, or right for that matter. But I just don't think God has called me to debate these things...only share my experiences.
WoF has such a bad name on this forum. It does hurt to see myself and others that I know portrayed to be heretics, when I know that we are not.
We love Jesus. He is our Savior. That is what it is all about. Him. We are living our lives to show His love to others and to draw men to Him. Everything we do points the way to Him and our need of Him as our Savior. We do believe in the gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our "power source" so to speak. Because, again, we can do nothing apart from Him. It is the Holy Spirit working though us and in us. We believe in God's grace. Thank God for His grace. We believe in the Word. His Word has all the answers for us. That is why it is so important to know His Word for ourselves.
So, yes, I am WoF. Hope this helps you and others understand what I believe and where I am coming from. I believe we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Some may not think so, they can't get past the WoF label. For that, I'm sorry. Especially since you really don't know us like you think you do.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 5:22:54 PM
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earthless
Posts: 2572
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
Earthless,
I do believe in health and "prosperity".
I do believe health is available to Christians, just like salvation. But, no, I do not know why all are not healed anymore than I know why all are not saved. I will be bluntly honest about that. I am not God and do not know why some are not healed. I suppose their could be many reasons.
Could it be because God never promises physical healing for all believers?
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
If Jesus is our example, He told some "your faith has made you whole". Do I believe that everyone has to have the right amount of faith to be healed? No. But I do believe that for some faith does play a part. But I am not the judge of that. I can't see their heart or what the Holy Spirit may be speaking to them. Could He be telling some..."have faith"?
He also told some "go and sin no more" when healing them. Do I believe that sin is the cause of all sickness? No. But again, I cannot see what God sees. Could one be continuing in a particular sin that He has spoke to them about? Could that hinder their healing? Maybe in some cases it could be the reason.
I don't have all the answers. I do find it hard to believe that a loving Father's will would be for His children to suffer in sickness and pain.
If you believe the Bible then you will have to deal with it being hard to do. Read Job, see the life of the Apostle Paul, how nearly all the disciples died horrific deaths and lived lifes of poverty, persecution, facing the tyrant's steel and the wrath of lions for their faith in Jesus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
But many do. I personally believe it is His will that we walk in health.
It's more important to know what the Bible says is reality, not what our emotions and hearts want to believe.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
But I'm not saying that we won't ever be sick. It's how we deal with the pain and sickness when it comes that I believe you and I differ greatly on. Again, I do not know why some are not healed. I believe it is between them and God, there are some things we just don't know.
I also want to say, to be completely honest, that of those you mentioned in your post...I have listened to some of them only a few times, others more. Most, not in a while. I hardly ever watch Christian TV anymore. I have read some of their books. What I got from the ones I listened to, was not that we would never be sick, but that we didn't have to stay that way.
Well this thread and many others are chuck full of video, written, audio documentation that shows they indeed do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
That is my paraphrase. When they said something like "a believer should never be sick", I didn't take it to mean other than what I said. We don't have to stay that way. Maybe I just heard differently or something.
I didn't glean from the ones I heard or read that they were trying to make the ones who were not healed feel guilty about it. At least, I didn't take it that way. Maybe it's because I wasn't taught to make them feel guilty about it. But to try to help them and teach them what we believe the truth of His Word is. Maybe that's why I didn't take it that way but I can see how some would if they didn't understand what was being said. If some are putting guilt on others, that is wrong. But, also there are times when the truth makes us feel "guilty". But the scripture says there is therefore now no condemnaiton for those who are in Christ Jesus.
As far as prosperity, it does not mean that we will be filthy rich. Prosperity means more than money. It is everything that He has provided for us, peace, joy, love, etc.. But finances is a part of it. Does it mean that everyone should be millionares? No, of course not. And I do not agree with the ones who tell people "you have to give to me; give this amount;" etc. I am not against giving, but I do agree that some are wrong in the way they do. My pastor warns us against them, and he is a Rhema grad. I do believe that we can be blessed as we give, but that is not limited to money nor is it why we should give. I do believe in sowing and reaping...whatever it is...good or bad.
I also want to say something about Kenneth Copeland regarding "any man could have died on the cross" or whatever his exact quote was. You know the one.
I think I actually saw the broadcast of that show or maybe I read it in a book. I don't remember. But I do remember seeing it somewhere besides here.
I honestly did not think he meant that anyone could have died for us. I took from it that, while any man could die on a cross, because obviously that was done during that time in history....but, that only Jesus could have died as our Savior because He was the only one able to do that for us. In other words, any man could die on a cross, but not any man could do what Jesus did in dying on the cross.
That is not what he said - he said that any man with enough RHEMA (revelation knowledge) could indeed have done what Jesus did on the cross. Please refer to the Kenneth Copeland thread for the link.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
I was not left with the impression that KC was saying that anyone could have died on a cross for us. Not at all. I was left with a deeper love for our Savior knowing that He was the only one who could do what He did for us on the cross. His shed blood atoned for our sins. Him who knew no sin became sin for us. That is amazing to me. I still don't think we truly grasp what He did for us on the cross, in His death burial and resurrection.
I have personally heard many Wof teachers who have come to our church. Not one of them discounted the blood of Jesus being enough to atone for our sins. So, earthless, I do whole heartedly disgree with you in saying that Wof doesn't think His blood atonement was enough. That is nowhere near what I have read, heard, or been taught.
Could it simple be what you have not personally read, heard, or was taught? That in no way precludes them having taught it and never retracted, correct?
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ORIGINAL: map4
I am sure that there are things that we teach or do that you would consider heretical. There is nothing I can do about that. I know that my pastor hears the Holy Spirit. I trust him.
I hope you trust God's Word above any man living today - that you test all things in light of Scripture. What matters is if a self-professing Christian teaches, believes, adheres to the core essentials of Christianity. Not what their feelings say or who they think they are hearing from.
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ORIGINAL: map4
And I hear the Holy Spirit also. If there is something that doesn't sit right with me, my pastor has an open door to discuss it at any time. He is strong in his beliefs but he nor anyone else can force anyone to believe anything. And, my pastor doesn't agree with all that "Wof preachers" do and say. He speaks about it from his pulpit. He acknowledges that their are Rhema grads who have "gone flaky" so to speak. But we are Wof. He does teach the importance of our words, that we can speak to our problems, etc.
Speak to your problems in regards to what? Your words do not have creative power, you are not God. Faith is not a force and your words are not the containers of said force.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
But, as I stated in my first post...you have to believe what you are saying. He talked about this just yesterday. Just confessing scripture won't do anything if the Holy Spirit hasn't made the Word alive to you. You have to believe it and have faith in God that He will bring it to pass. We are just to speak His Word, stand on it and believe. One important thing that needs to be said, we do not "demand" God to do any old thing we want. That is another lie about the majority of Wof people that I know. Everything has to be asked in His will which He has given us. Now, to be fair, I'm sure we disagree on exactly what His will is on some things.
Are some out there teaching it the wrong way? Yes, they are. But not the ones that I know.
earthless, I do not want to debate particulars with you. You are a much better debator than I could claim to be. That is not what I am here to do. There are some things we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only tell about the things that I know and have been taught.
And I can only show you what those you listen to teach and who then the Bible says differently.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
I cannot speak for every Wof person there is. In the end, I will only have to give an account for myself. That is not to say that we sit back and don't speak up for what is wrong, or right for that matter. But I just don't think God has called me to debate these things...only share my experiences.
God calls us all to be like the Bereans, to test (judge) all things in light of Scripture. We will have no excuse when we are asked why we bought into falsehoods and had itching ears.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
WoF has such a bad name on this forum. It does hurt to see myself and others that I know portrayed to be heretics, when I know that we are not.
We love Jesus. He is our Savior. That is what it is all about. Him. We are living our lives to show His love to others and to draw men to Him. Everything we do points the way to Him and our need of Him as our Savior. We do believe in the gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our "power source" so to speak. Because, again, we can do nothing apart from Him. It is the Holy Spirit working though us and in us. We believe in God's grace. Thank God for His grace. We believe in the Word. His Word has all the answers for us. That is why it is so important to know His Word for ourselves.
Yet the 'Jesus' that the Word of Faith leadership preaches is not the Jesus revealed to us in Scripture. Many use the name of Jesus but have poured different meanings into them. The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
So, yes, I am WoF. Hope this helps you and others understand what I believe and where I am coming from. I believe we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Some may not think so, they can't get past the WoF label. For that, I'm sorry. Especially since you really don't know us like you think you do.
How do I not know Word of Faith like I think I do? Are you not familiar with my posts/testimony?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 7:30:37 PM
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ChristopherJ007
Posts: 208
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin under demonic influence?
Striking similarities with what has been seen in occultic/Hindu circles for centuries
earthless,
That was quite an interesting video... I have seen/read/heard much of the WOF teachings, but didn't know they were big into manifestations like the vineyard / Toronto blessing type churches... I guess you learn something new every day! (And I thought I knew a lot about the WOF!)
You made an interested statement in another one of your posts:
How do I not know Word of Faith like I think I do? Are you not familiar with my posts/testimony?
I'm curious to know your testimony... would you be willing to share it with me &/or give me a link to where you've posted it? thanks!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.chrisjordanpublications.ca (new)
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(free MP3 audio sermons, devotionals and more).
NOTE: My first book, "Supernatural", was released on June 5th. ISBN: 978-0-9865291-0-8
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 8:20:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 2572
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin under demonic influence?
Striking similarities with what has been seen in occultic/Hindu circles for centuries
earthless,
That was quite an interesting video... I have seen/read/heard much of the WOF teachings, but didn't know they were big into manifestations like the vineyard / Toronto blessing type churches... I guess you learn something new every day! (And I thought I knew a lot about the WOF!)
You made an interested statement in another one of your posts:
How do I not know Word of Faith like I think I do? Are you not familiar with my posts/testimony?
I'm curious to know your testimony... would you be willing to share it with me &/or give me a link to where you've posted it? thanks!
I well try to type out as much of it as I can.... and hopefully not butcher it much due to time constraints. Not everything will be in chronological order:
A good number of years ago I used to co-own a Christian recording label - I was also the manager of the label's premiere band. We would do an average of several hundred concerts/events a year - all throughout the U.S., Latin America, and Canada. We were also popular in the Philippines, etc..
Did that for a good number of years and because of it had the opportunity to visit literally thousands of different churches from various denominations.
During those times we were in many a service where the Word of Faith type preachings and practices were conducted. Present and not being able to necessarily just walk out - I have seen my fair share of the so-called manifestations this group claims.
During this time I was an associate pastor in a decent sized inner-city Pentecostal church. Our doctrine was at times a bit more middle of the road Baptist, but many of our beliefs, worship styles, etc.. were Pentecostal.
Did that for almost ten years and during that time started writing for different publications, ministries, etc regarding apologetic type topics - ranging from cults, the occults, abhorrent movements in the church, false teachers, false prophets, cultural trends, world religions and a list of other items.
During our search for a senior pastor (because for many years there wasn't one, it fell on me and I was rather young to even be doing so according to many) the church ended up merging with another that came with a senior pastor the board had approved.
The first year of the merge was fine and nothing out of the ordinary besides the usual growing pains of two different congregations coming together as one.
A little after the first year the senior pastor and the leaders that came from his original congregation started taking affront to my sermons and or apologetic round table meetings we had once a week.
They started to preach HYPER Word of Faith and many claim that they were just masking it during the initial meet and greet and subsequent first year.
It got to the point where one Sunday morning I would preach about God's grace being sufficient and the next Sunday morning the senior pastor or someone from his side of the fence would counter what I had said and preach that if we speak forth things they will come into existence.
One Wednesday night round table would be about a particular Word of Faith individual's teachings, such as Joel Osteen.. and then that following Sunday morning they would preach about how marvelous God was using Joel and his new book.
One Sunday morning I would preach about God being the sovereign creator of all and the next Sunday morning they would preach about being little gods and God needing permission to do anything in this planet.
On and on and on I could go with examples after examples.. it was a very hard time for my family and me. For many that did not agree with what was going on and church time ended up being a time of over-bearing stress, headaches, and nervousness of what was going to be said or done in the service.
The string that broke the camel's back was the last Sunday we were present.. the senior pastor preached about getting so deep into prayer that he would physically levitate. We sat there stunned and during our family dinner time could not get over what he had said.
My parents thought that perhaps we heard him wrong, misunderstood him, or that he left out some context or clarification.
So my mom called him that night and asked for him and his wife to join us for coffee and cake the following night (Monday night).
They graciously accepted.
When they arrived at my parent's house that following evening.. we brought our concerns up with him and asked him if he could please clarify for us what he had said.
He did.
He said that he indeed would physically levitate and float around the room when he would get deep into prayer.
We asked him two more times if that was what he indeed meant. He said absolutely yes, without a doubt.
After dealing with that state of affairs for some three years, we made the decision (as a family) to leave the church.
It hurt to do so - we had been there since its inception. Had helped to physically build it up from a one room store front to a full complex that had around 500 active members.
For some years (and still to this day) I have written for several apologetic and research ministries/organizations. In being part of that I have had the opportunity to be in situations that were surreal.
One example is having had dinner with Benny Hinn - out of our concerns about his Word of Faith teachings and such. After a long and good discussion he repented of his teachings and vowed he would renounce them on the air (TBN).
What happened shortly after that meeting?
He publically cursed us on a platform, said we would be stricken down for touching God's anointed. He then went on TBN and to rousing applause said that he had searched the Scripture for one verse, just one verse, that would say God could give him a holy ghost machine gun to blow our heads off with. He was angry about "heretic hunters" and certain organizations naming names on the radio airwaves and in their publications.
I have received death threats, vile death porn, physical attacks, been kicked out churches, cursed, called a tool of Satan, told I am dead in my sins, told I do not know the Holy Spirit, lost many friends, lost many so-called opportunities because of what I write and say.
My wife was born and raised in a HYPER Word of Faith church - one that would make many Lakeland participants blush. One where the pastor referred to himself as an Apostle. One where frequent so-called Prophets would speak "words of knowledge" even though their success rate was dismissal, people still would follow their words.
One where they once locked the doors of the church, instructed the deacons to block the doors, and not allow anyone to leave until they donated at least $1,000 then and there.
One where the "Apostle" and his Pastor wife had people take their jewelry, car keys, anything of value and bring to them at the altar. They then got down and rolled around in the money, the rings, and chains, and car keys.
Telling people God was going to give them double of what they gave.
One where they then told everyone that in the basement of the church they were going to be selling back everything to the highest bidder.
I will never forget being in the parking lot that night after the debacle and speaking to a guy who was a new believer. He told me that he had just gotten saved a few months ago, was an immigrant, and was praying to God for a job and a way to get to it.
He said that he thought God had answered his prayers with a 1988 VW Jetta and a basic job. But that now God had asked him for the car and he did not know how he was going to get to work that following day.
My heart sunk.
A church where if you were going to miss any service or one of their nightly events (be it bible study, worship practices, pantry help, youth group, etc..) you had to call the "Apostle" and ask for permission to miss. Even when you did not have any ministry responsibilities for that particular date.
If he said no and you still did not go - you were put on discipline and told that you were disobedient to the Lord.
My mother in law is an international Word of Faith "superstar" - she has sat on Osteen's planning meetings (as have I). She has done a number of conferences with the largest names in the Word of Faith circuit (and I have been present there, behind the scenes, with her for many of them).
She says I need to be transformed by the Holy Spirit and has said that if I changed my ways (stop discussing things in light of Scripture) that she could easily plant me in those conferences and that I would quickly (she says due to my Scripture memorization and speaking skills) rise to the top and have enough money to never worry about finances.
I am sharing more than I am comfortable with, but the context of my answer to your question requires a little of it.
A LOT could be said - but I need to stop now.
All of that is just the tip of the iceberg.. so for someone to say that I do not know Word of Faith.. well.. it's a bit skewed.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 9:17:06 PM
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map4
Posts: 25
Status: offline
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earthless, that is quite a testimony.
I always wondered what you meant by HYPER WoF. We have never had those kind of things happen in my church.
I was going to respond to you earlier but got sidetracked. You posted your testimony before I had a chance to respond.
What I was going to tell you is that I should have said you don't know me and the people I know. That is what I meant by not knowing us like you think you do. I knew that you had personal experience with WoF.
But like I said, my church has not done those type of things.
It's probably a mute point now after what you just posted, as far as if anyone will believe me. Oh well. Such is life.
I understand better now where you are coming from.
Again, I'm not going to debate things. I posted what I believe and will let it stand at that. As you have done also. I cannot defend what other churches or teachers do that may be in error. The only thing I would like to add is that we are not a congregation of "itching ears". We do not do things by feelings. My pastor teaches the Word and tells us not to go by feelings but to read the Word and have faith in the Word, in Jesus. We are not a "feel good" church. Their is balance in what is taught. Sure, we believe in a supernatural God, but, you have to have a foundation of the Word or you will go "wacky" and fall for things not of Him. I understand that.
So I will leave it at that and say that what is false does need to be exposed. Just know that not all of us do some of the things you mentioned in your testimony. Some of us do, actually, follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. I can't make you believe that either other than to judge by our fruits.
Thanks for the discussion! Have a great night!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 10:21:49 PM
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ChristopherJ007
Posts: 208
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
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earthless,
Thanks for sharing your testimony. You know, one of the most sobering and challenging Scriptures for me as a pastor is James 3:1 - "Do not desire to be teachers, knowing that they will receive the greater judgment/condemnation." It breaks my heart when I hear stories of leaders in the church who have hurt, abused or deceived (intentionally or not) believers. I'm so sorry for your experience, earthless!
To tell you a little bit about myself, I was saved in a WOF church as well, and about a year after my salvatoin, felt the call of God into the ministry, and moved out to the west coast of Canada to attend Bible College. While I was there, I got involved in another hyper WOF church that was parroting all of the big name preachers out there. The bookstore was filled with all of the big-named WOF preachers - Hagin, Copeland, etc. Of course, being a new believer, I didn't know anything but the WOF message, and soon after got involved in ministry at this church. For four years there I served as the youth pastor. However, as I grew in my knowledge of God's Word (I had such a hunger to know God through His Word - I had read through the whole Bible from cover to cover three months after getting saved, and have continued to read it regularly since then). But thank God for His grace, and as I grew in my knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, I came to see that a lot of what was preached and practiced in my church wasn't based on the Bible. And God in His mercy brought me out of the WOF movement, and into an independant charismatic church. I still believe in the gifts of the Spirit, healing, prophecy, miracles, etc. but not in the heretical way the WOF teachers tell it.
As a side note, for two of the years I was pastoring the youth at this WOF church, I was also a prayer minister for one of the largest WOF ministries active in the world today. So I too know well the teachings and practices of the WOF movement. And I thank God that He has moved me on into the Foursquare church family, where the focus is on preaching JESUS - the SAVIOUR, HEALER, BAPTISER IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND COMING KING.
Looking forward to continuing discussing all of these things with you all!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.chrisjordanpublications.ca (new)
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(free MP3 audio sermons, devotionals and more).
NOTE: My first book, "Supernatural", was released on June 5th. ISBN: 978-0-9865291-0-8
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 10:24:24 PM
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ChristopherJ007
Posts: 208
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
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map4,
You mentioned in an earlier post I believe that you are a part of a WOF church, and yet, listening to you describe your church's beliefs, message, and practice, I'm not so sure that this is the case. What makes you think that your church is a WOF church? Perhaps it is WOF in name only, but doesn't embrace some of the heretical doctrines of the WOF movement... Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts and contributions to this thread as well. Blessings!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.chrisjordanpublications.ca (new)
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(free MP3 audio sermons, devotionals and more).
NOTE: My first book, "Supernatural", was released on June 5th. ISBN: 978-0-9865291-0-8
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 7:45:45 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1644
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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earthless...God bless you and your wonderful testimony, I pray that even ONE person caught up in the WoF cult would read it and be delivered!
Sadly, despite that wonderful testimony, some will still defend this false theology
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 12:33:05 PM
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Leo71
Posts: 15
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline
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I've noticed that so many people professing to be Christians enact the power of death, rather than the power of life, both of which reside in the tongue. In fact, are we not all guilty of this in some form or another? Scripture says that if we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts, we are saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, and with the heart one believes unto righteousness. Also, without faith it is impossible to please Him.
So is it not true that most Christians who are defeated in life are defeated because they confess and believe the wrong things? They have spoken the words of the enemy. And those same words hold them in bondage. Proverbs 6:1-2 says, "...Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth." Faith-filled words equal victory. Fear-filled words equal defeat. Man is a spirit being, capable of operating on the level of faith for which God is the author and finisher. In Mark 9:23, we read, "Jesus said unto him, 'If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.'"
Matthew 17:20 states, "And Jesus said unto them, 'Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.'" Mark 11:23 says, "For verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.'"
I understand these things to be spiritual law. If applied with true faith (absolute trust in God and His word), we can be assured that victory is ours in the name of the Lord! Since Jesus Himself, as the Son of God sent in the flesh, spoke to the wind and the sea, commanding them to be still, cast out demons, withered a fig tree, and even raised the dead -- all with the spoken word -- should we not then believe with all our hearts that we as joint-heirs can do the same? Or do we not consider John 14:12, wherein Jesus states under no uncertain terms, "...He that believeth in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater..."?
How is it, then, that we as professing believers in Christ Jesus have only the things that we say, when Christ Himself has said that we can have whatsoever we say?
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What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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