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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2009 12:30:23 PM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
benelchi
It makes no distinction between "usurping authority" (i.e. taking an authoritative role that one had no right to take) and "having authority" (holding a position of authority that one was given the right to hold). One is an example of a "power grab" and the other is an example of submitting to the authority of the church leadership.
This argument doesn't work, sir. ANY woman who takes the position of deacon, elder, pastor, whatever in the Church, teaching men and leading men, are usurping authority, as they have no right to do that - the leadership position is given to men, outside or inside of the Church.
(1 Corinthians 11:3) - "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
Furthermore, sir, reading it in this manner, you pretty much have to say the Church has been wrong for about the past 1,900 years!
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2009 3:14:22 PM
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myka
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quote:
This argument doesn't work, sir. ANY woman who takes the position of deacon, elder, pastor, whatever in the Church, teaching men and leading men, are usurping authority, as they have no right to do that - the leadership position is given to men, outside or inside of the Church.
Um, we are talking about the actual words of the Bible; it isn't an interpretation by a person, but the words of God. The word indicates taking power upon oneself outside the authority structures that are in place and acting independently of the structures.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 1:27:50 PM
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cleighw
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well Aquilla and Pricilla sure preached to Apollos. These ladies were of great help to this preacher.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 1:41:38 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
D.A. Carson explains "I do not permit" (video):
http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Carson-on-1-Timothy-2-Permit#
The problem here is that the debate is not about whether Paul "permitted" or "did not permit" anything; it is about exactly what it was that Paul was not permitting. It is interesting that that part of D. A Carson's speech was cut off. I suspect it is because the author of this page did not like what D. A. Carson had to say on that point.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 2:40:55 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
D.A. Carson explains "I do not permit" (video):
http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Carson-on-1-Timothy-2-Permit#
The problem here is that the debate is not about whether Paul "permitted" or "did not permit" anything; it is about exactly what it was that Paul was not permitting. It is interesting that that part of D. A Carson's speech was cut off. I suspect it is because the author of this page did not like what D. A. Carson had to say on that point.
Actually, I would suspect that it had to do with the fact that part 2 is being planned and hasn't been posted yet. It actually says that this was a first in a series of clips on the page. Don't be so presuming.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 2:57:29 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cleighw
well Aquilla and Pricilla sure preached to Apollos. These ladies were of great help to this preacher.
Aquila and Priscilla were husband/wife. (see Acts 18).
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2009 10:41:10 PM
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buzzbbird
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God uses women, and mightily, from Deborah in Judges and Ruth to Phebe and Priscilla.
What MUST be seen and understood is the REASON that women are excluded from Pastorship and positions of authority. Paul tells us that it is because Eve was deceived, not Adam. Also it is because woman was made for the man, as a help, meet for him, not the other way around.
OK God is God and His reasons for disallowing women are not our reasons for obedience. We are to obey because He said so. If we ask why and base our obedience on the answer, we are placing ourselves above God and judging his reason as insufficient.
The main difference is in and out of the congregation. And, still, there is no authority over men, for the above mentioned reasons.
Women were never used in capacity of ruler of Israel, Prophet, or Apostle and yet they were used to evangelize and teach and expound the Gospel more fully.
Pastors, bishops and elders are to be the husband (disqualifying women) of one women (disqualifying single persons, bigamists, and some say divorced persons)
As nearly all "Christian" churches do not follow the 1 Cor 14 instructions on how we, the church, are to hold our congressional meetings. They still follow the Roman Catholic version of the priesthood.
Is it any wonder with nearly two thousand years of congressional disobedience, that there are 'churches' that are allowing women in the pulpit, and homosexuals... etc?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2009 1:21:23 PM
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cposey
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I'm new to this thread,but the topic intrigues me. I can't say i've read all 247 pages, but i have read a few. The issue I have with women being pastors is that why would the church's foundation be any different than that of marriage. Doesn't the bible teach that men and women are joined together, none is greater than the other. However women are to submit to their husbands in matters of leadership.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2009 12:56:06 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
D.A. Carson on 1 Timothy 2 - "Authority" (video)
Did you note the acknowledgment Carson made of the work of other scholars whose work demonstrates problems with his own position? As I look at the evidence for the interpretation offered by Carson here, I must conclude that he has not made his case and has too easily put aside the evidence that contradicts his position; however, I do respect the fact that he does acknowledge (although with a strong bias) the work of other scholars that contradicts the position he presented and this is something that is rarely done by people presenting this same position here in this thread.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2010 12:00:21 PM
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SamsonUSA
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Matt 7:16 says, You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Luke 6:44 concurs, For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.
I am curious if anyone knows of a church that is bearing much fruit in the body of Christ whose leader of the flock and teaching Pastor is a woman.
If you do would you be so kind as to provide information or possibly a link to the churches website so that I may gather information?
I am prayerfully considering writing a research thesis on this subject. Thank you.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2010 12:14:47 PM
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Saved34
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Women clearly can labor in the Gospel. They can be soul winners, they can teach just as good as men, they are just commanded to yield or concede to the man in the local Church. They are not to lead a congregation where men are present, especially qualified men who also labor in the word. Outside of the local congregation I believe women can teach, lead Bible studies, and anything else a man can do.
I've seen many Churches that will not even let woman do anything in the Church besides cover there heads and be quiet. It's seems to me a woman can lead a prayer in the midst of the congregation, and even serve as a deaconess. Priscilla and aquila both taught the great Apollos the truth of Christ. One of the greatest preachers who ever lived was led to Christ by a woman (C.H. Mackintosh). When I see a woman claiming herself to be a Bishop, or a Pastor, or a leader of a Church I know she is in great error. There is absolutely no scripture to support this train of thought in the New Testament Church.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2010 3:09:13 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Matt 7:16 says, You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Luke 6:44 concurs, For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.
I am curious if anyone knows of a church that is bearing much fruit in the body of Christ whose leader of the flock and teaching Pastor is a woman.
If you do would you be so kind as to provide information or possibly a link to the churches website so that I may gather information?
I am prayerfully considering writing a research thesis on this subject. Thank you.
There is a church in Decatur (close to where I live) with a Woman at the helm as their senior Pastor. I do not know how fruitful they are as a congregation (it is fairly large at a little under 3000 members, but you can be large and without fruit  ). This is their website.
You might want to contact a bible college that prepares women to become Pastors. One that I am aware of is the Nazarene Bible College in Colorado (which surprised me because I know that James Dobson is a Nazarene and I would not have thought of him as someone who was a proponent of woman Pastors). This is their website. You might want to contact Focus on the Family and find out what their stance is on the matter. If they support women Pastors, they may have a data base for you to look at. I know they have a ministry for Pastors, so they may be able to give you the kind of resources you need. If you can find a church in your area that has a woman at the helm, one where others report "fruit," you might get a better feel for whether the church is truly fruitful or not by visiting and actually talking with the members.
To keep my post on topic, I personally have not witnessed a woman Pastor who was truly fruitful. I personally get an uneasy feeling at the thought of going to a church with a Woman as their covering. I believe that God has created an order to His church, and though I may not understand why He chooses what He chooses, I know that He can be trusted with the order He has chosen. That does not mean women cannot have a role in ministry. Nor does it mean that their role is inferior in any way. The same way that the Father is ahead of the Son (Jesus only did what He saw the Father doing), but remains equal in His role, the same holds true for the way God has ordained His order in the church. Though He has charged the man to lead, it does not make the follower inferior to the leader. They both serve the Kingdom, just in different ways.
I suspect God allows women to step into this kind a role because there are no men to step in where He is leading them for whatever reason. But I have no biblical reason for that suspicion. 
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 12:39:27 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
I suspect God allows women to step into this kind a role because there are no men to step in where He is leading them for whatever reason.
The men would be there to step in if the women (and men) were praying for a man and not a woman. We should never discount the impact of feminism on evangelical churches.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 1:23:49 AM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I suspect God allows women to step into this kind a role because there are no men to step in where He is leading them for whatever reason.
The men would be there to step in if the women (and men) were praying for a man and not a woman. We should never discount the impact of feminism on evangelical churches.
Agreed. God does "allow" it, yes - but He also allows us to hold wrong beliefs, sin, etc. God will never, ever, ever call a woman to preach.
God has very clear lines between the roles of men and women in all walks of life, in His Church and beyond. It is dangerous and mortally wrong to cross them. As it is to do anything against Him.
Just my thoughts.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 8:23:58 AM
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HomeSpunLady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I suspect God allows women to step into this kind a role because there are no men to step in where He is leading them for whatever reason.
The men would be there to step in if the women (and men) were praying for a man and not a woman. We should never discount the impact of feminism on evangelical churches.
Agreed. God does "allow" it, yes - but He also allows us to hold wrong beliefs, sin, etc. God will never, ever, ever call a woman to preach.
God has very clear lines between the roles of men and women in all walks of life, in His Church and beyond. It is dangerous and mortally wrong to cross them. As it is to do anything against Him.
Just my thoughts.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
Really? Never say never. I respectfully disagree with you.
What about prophesy? What about the many examples of women prophesying in scripture? And by prophesy I mean being the mouth-piece of God. To me that is same as preaching.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 2:14:16 PM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
HomeSpunLady
Really? Never say never. I respectfully disagree with you.
What about prophesy? What about the many examples of women prophesying in scripture? And by prophesy I mean being the mouth-piece of God. To me that is same as preaching.
I can say never, ma'am, when the Bible is why I say it.
Prophesy does not equal preaching. Scripture is abundantly clear on this entire subject. 1 Timothy 2, Titus, etc.
You are not arguing against me, you are arguing against God.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 3:39:39 PM
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HomeSpunLady
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Perhaps I should ask your definition of preaching and prophesying then.
Also if you believe that God would never, ever call a woman to preach, then what would you do with a woman who has a call and it has been affirmed in her life to preach? What would you do with her?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 3:53:30 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady
Perhaps I should ask your definition of preaching and prophesying then.
Also if you believe that God would never, ever call a woman to preach, then what would you do with a woman who has a call and it has been affirmed in her life to preach? What would you do with her?
For me personally she would have to find a way around clear scripture if she feels she is called to be an Elder or teacher of a Church. Her talents and gifts can be used in this great field of harvest called the world. Spreading the Gospel to her friends, family members, etc,etc, but a woman so far as my understanding of scripture is concerned, is not permitted to speak in an authoritative manner in the Church. Church leadership is given to men (Because the woman is to be subordinate to man, as man is to be subordinate to Christ).
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 4:04:29 PM
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HomeSpunLady
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However, there are instances of women prophesying throughout the old and new testament. It is clear that both men and women worked alongside each other in this manner to the glory of God.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 4:14:43 PM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
HomeSpunLady
Perhaps I should ask your definition of preaching and prophesying then.
Prophesying=foretelling.
Preaching=forthtelling.
Basically, that is. No woman should teach over men, or "preach" to men or anything of this sort. The Bible does not allow this.
quote:
HomeSpunLady
Also if you believe that God would never, ever call a woman to preach, then what would you do with a woman who has a call and it has been affirmed in her life to preach? What would you do with her?
It's quite simple. God will not contradict Himself. Therefore, ma'am, I am quite certainly say she has not been called, and it has not been affirmed; if she thinks it has, she is believing a lie.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 4:28:40 PM
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HomeSpunLady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
quote:
HomeSpunLady
Perhaps I should ask your definition of preaching and prophesying then.
Prophesying=foretelling.
Preaching=forthtelling.
Basically, that is. No woman should teach over men, or "preach" to men or anything of this sort. The Bible does not allow this.
quote:
HomeSpunLady
Also if you believe that God would never, ever call a woman to preach, then what would you do with a woman who has a call and it has been affirmed in her life to preach? What would you do with her?
It's quite simple. God will not contradict Himself. Therefore, ma'am, I am quite certainly say she has not been called, and it has not been affirmed; if she thinks it has, she is believing a lie.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
Even with examples in scripture of both?
And I disagree, preaching and prophesying are one in the same. Being the mouth piece of God.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2010 4:32:26 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
What about prophesy? What about the many examples of women prophesying in scripture? And by prophesy I mean being the mouth-piece of God. To me that is same as preaching.
Prophecy is direct revelation from God (2 Pet. 1:20,21), whereas preaching is the proclamation of the Gospel or the exposition of the written Word (Rom. 10:14,15). Therefore the two cannot be confounded.
While it is true that God used women to prophesy in both the OT and the NT, He did not appoint these women as elders in either the OT or the NT.
And that is the crux of the matter. A pastor is an elder, and while all elders may not have the gifts of preaching and teaching, all elders are to be men. There is no doubt whatsoever about this (1 Tim.3:1-7; Tit. 1:5-9).
Therefore, Paul was very clear about the role of women within the assembly. They were barred from preaching and teaching the entire church or taking positions of spiritual leadership (1 Tim. 2:11-15).
At the same time women have numerous other ministries, including mature Christian women teaching younger or immature Christian women their practical Christian duties (Tit. 2:3,4).
There is a very important spiritual principle that underlies these truths. Just as the "head" of Christ is God, the "head" of the woman is the man (1 Cor. 11:3). Just as the Christian man symbolizes Christ as the Head of the Church, the Christian woman symbloizes the Church itself under Christ's authority. Hence the need for women to cover their heads during public worship (1 Cor. 11:10).
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