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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 11:08:56 AM
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gmcspice
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Homespun-lady, your points are very valid.
These men have been told these same things, but they refuse the truth.
They refuse that at the time these things were written, it was not scripture but advice to address specific problems in the church Body at the time.
The only scripture at the time of Paul was the OT and I believe that is very important.
These men keep saying God does not change but stand behind scripture that says he did. (to be clear on this, YES, what Paul spoke is truth, but it was to address a specific problem, NOT to override what God already set down).
I believe God has not changed.
He appointed Deborah and she was a Judge and a prophetess, but these men just don't see that it is possible for God to give women these gifts because in the spiritual body of Christ, there is no male or female. God does not look at gender when he gives out gifts, he looks at the heart.
But, they will argue that God only appointed her because men's hearts were corrupt. The funny thing about that is, men's hearts are corrupt even more now. So it stands to reason that God will use who ever is willing and will bow to his will.
It is understandable that God would use a woman because men keep saying God put them in charge of the church when in reality, Christ is the head of the church.
They don't understand that the example given is that when the church is assembled, we are to submit to each other with Christ as the head AS(simile, comparison) as husband and wife submit to each other AS (simile) man is the head of HIS wife, not all of women.
They don't get that part. It is alright though, I bow out because God calls us to peace first and tells us to NOT cause one another to stumble. If they aren't ready for this kind of meat, then that is fine with me. I take no offense to it at all.
Because above all else, we are to edify the Body of Christ, not tear it down. So, when we are around men like this, it is better to submit, than to cause them to stumble.
And as for the definition of prophecy / preach - their root words are the same.
Its the same now as it was in the time of Ezra, and the other prophets. To speak God's word IS to do both.
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gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 12:39:38 PM
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Grace71
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
What about prophesy? What about the many examples of women prophesying in scripture? And by prophesy I mean being the mouth-piece of God. To me that is same as preaching.
Prophecy is direct revelation from God (2 Pet. 1:20,21), whereas preaching is the proclamation of the Gospel or the exposition of the written Word (Rom. 10:14,15). Therefore the two cannot be confounded.
While it is true that God used women to prophesy in both the OT and the NT, He did not appoint these women as elders in either the OT or the NT.
And that is the crux of the matter. A pastor is an elder, and while all elders may not have the gifts of preaching and teaching, all elders are to be men. There is no doubt whatsoever about this (1 Tim.3:1-7; Tit. 1:5-9).
Therefore, Paul was very clear about the role of women within the assembly. They were barred from preaching and teaching the entire church or taking positions of spiritual leadership (1 Tim. 2:11-15).
At the same time women have numerous other ministries, including mature Christian women teaching younger or immature Christian women their practical Christian duties (Tit. 2:3,4).
There is a very important spiritual principle that underlies these truths. Just as the "head" of Christ is God, the "head" of the woman is the man (1 Cor. 11:3). Just as the Christian man symbolizes Christ as the Head of the Church, the Christian woman symbolizes the Church itself under Christ's authority. Hence the need for women to cover their heads during public worship (1 Cor. 11:10).
But woemn were in a position of authority. Over men. So Deborah, who was appointed by God, could lay down the law to the nation, but not teach or preach in the church? The other thing that gets to me is many say because eve was deceived, it is the reason many use as to why women can't teach or preach over men. So, if we think that way, why is it ok then for women to teach our children? Its ok to deceive the children but not men? That doesn't make sense.
_____________________________
Just want to say goodbye to everyone. Many of you were instrumental in helping me through the separation with my husband. God bless you all.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 4:24:08 PM
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Crushmaster
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Allow me to put a thought out.
Honestly, we don't even know if Deborah was a judge. I know that's not a popular thought, but hear me out. Yes, she was a prophetess, there is no doubt. But look at Hebrews 11:
(Hebrews 11:32-34) - "And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: {33} who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, {34} quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens."
Samson, Gideon, and Jephthah are all judges. Barak is mentioned in between Gideon and Samson. There is no mention of Deborah. And it was not because no women were mentioned; both Sarah, and Rahab were mentioned.
Just something to chew on.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
Are YOU Righteous?
My Blog
Judgment Day Someday (Consider Eternity!)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 8:45:40 PM
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gmcspice
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Cush, you have to remember that when Paul wrote these letters, that is exactly what they were...... LETTERS!!!!. They were not considered scripture yet.
When Paul talks about scripture, he is speaking of the OT and the OT specifically says that Deborah was a judge that judged Israel BEFORE there were kings.
You can either like it or lump it.
I tell you the truth,
The reason God is choosing women is for the same reason why He chose Deborah... because men have been given over to reprobate minds. We have porno in the pulpits look at how many godly men have fallen.
We have broken homes because men don't know how to act anymore. Men have allowed the enemy to just destroy them.
And you know what is sad... Just like Adam tried to blame Eve, Men are trying to blame women now. It is not women's fault that men refuse to pick up their crosses and bare them.
You want to get mad at women when God has said "okay, you don't want to act right, that's alright, I got plenty of willing vessels. " You can bet God's word is going to be proclaimed just like he says it is.
You want to point a finger, point it at yourselves, men and your brothers.
I don't mean to hurt any one's feelings but God is gonna do what he is gonna do.
Till men stand up and say "thus says the Lord" this is going to continue to happen.
We need men who are the way the Bible says to be. Strong, loving caring and willing to stand up for what is right. And a REAL Godly woman will stand beside a man who is like that.
But right now all I see, is men when the first sign of trouble comes, they want cut and run.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 8:59:50 PM
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lw9
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quote:
gmcspice: Cush, you have to remember that when Paul wrote these letters, that is exactly what they were...... LETTERS!!!!. They were not considered scripture yet.
Seriously??? You personally may not consider Paul's letters to have been scripture, but the Bible says otherwise:
2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 HE WRITES THE SAME WAY IN ALL OF HIS LETTERS. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.
Notice Peter considers Paul's letters to be among the other scriptures, and therefore equal even back then. The above passage is talking about exactly what is happening here: Scripture that is difficult for some to accept and is therefore distorted, ignored, or explained away.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 9:59:04 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
But woemn were in a position of authority. Over men. So Deborah, who was appointed by God, could lay down the law to the nation, but not teach or preach in the church?
Putting the Myth of Deborah to Rest
There is a huge difference between "laying down the law" and "administering justice". Even today, judges do not "lay down the law". They apply the law in the administration (or mal-administration) of justice.
1. When we read in Jud 4:4 "and Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time", we need to determine carefully what the Hebrew word for "judged" means in this context. It is the word "shaphat" which means "to pronounce sentence (for or against), to administer justice, as a magistrate..." This is a far cry from taking the position of one of Israel's elders.
2. She did not at any point usurp the position of Barak, who was the actual "judge" or "deliverer" of Israel. Instead she sent for him and asked him to do what God had commanded (v.6). Had Deborah been appointed to replace Barak, she would have done what he was supposed to do without involving him.
3. Deborah also told Barak that she would entice Sisera to the river Kishon in order to deliver him into Barak's hand (v. 7). Once again we see that Deborah would not usurp Barak's position.
4. Barak was a coward, and would not go without Deborah (v. 8), so she also told him that he would not receive the honor of destroying Sisera, but instead a woman (Jael) would receive that honor (v. 9).
5. Even so, when the time came for the Lord to deal with Sisera and his chariots, Deborah again encouraged Barak to take action (v. 14). Once again we see that Deborah would not usurp Barak's position.
6. The heroine of the story was Jael, who killed Sisera with a tent peg (v.21). Yet she handed the dead Sisera over to Barak instead of taking Barak's position (v.22). But when the judges are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, neither Deborah nor Jael are mentioned, but rather Barak, with Gideon, Samson, and Jephtha (Heb. 11:32).
Why don't feminists put the myth of Deborah to rest by examining the record? Because this is the one sole exception they can latch onto to "prove" that women can be placed in authority over men. Yet, Deborah simply administered justice and helped Barak, the actual Judge/Deliverer of Israel at this time.
quote:
The other thing that gets to me is many say because eve was deceived, it is the reason many use as to why women can't teach or preach over men.
Unless you reject the words of the apostle Paul as not being Scripture, it is actually God the Holy Spirit who has given us this reason for denying women the role of preaching and teaching in the churches (1 Tim.2:14). So if you reject this reason, you are rejecting God's counsel, not man's. Either all Paul's letters are Scripture, or they have no authority for Christians. Quite evidently, they have no authority for feminists.
quote:
So, if we think that way, why is it ok then for women to teach our children? Its ok to deceive the children but not men? That doesn't make sense.
It does not make sense because you have reverted to humanistic thinking.
The reason why women are barred from preaching and teaching is not because Eve was deceived, but she "was in the transgression" -- she blatanly disobeyed God in (a) having a dialogue with Satan, (b) removing herself from under the authority of her husband, and (c) eating the forbidden fruit. And because of this she was placed under her husbands authority -- "he shall rule over thee" -- when God pronounced the curse on mankind (Gen. 3:16). And whenever women have claimed to be prophetess and teachers, they have invariably led people astray (Rev. 2:20).
There were many devoted women who were disciples of Christ. Yet all His apostles were men, and all the elders appointed by the apostles were men.
To submit to this principle from God is to show that women are true followers of Christ. To rebel against this is to show that women have the spirit of Eve.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 12:43:05 AM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 242
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quote:
Ezra
It does not make sense because you have reverted to humanistic thinking.
The reason why women are barred from preaching and teaching is not because Eve was deceived, but she "was in the transgression" -- she blatanly disobeyed God in (a) having a dialogue with Satan, (b) removing herself from under the authority of her husband, and (c) eating the forbidden fruit. And because of this she was placed under her husbands authority -- "he shall rule over thee" -- when God pronounced the curse on mankind (Gen. 3:16). And whenever women have claimed to be prophetess and teachers, they have invariably led people astray (Rev. 2:20).
There were many devoted women who were disciples of Christ. Yet all His apostles were men, and all the elders appointed by the apostles were men.
To submit to this principle from God is to show that women are true followers of Christ. To rebel against this is to show that women have the spirit of Eve.
Are you saying men were not the leaders before the Fall? You say that "removing herself from under the authority of her husband", and then say "because of this she was placed under her husband's authority."
Eve was deceived. Adam, who was there when the serpent was tempting Eve, but didn't step in, sinned with full knowledge of what he was doing.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, sir; this is just what I gathered. I'm glad to see we at least mostly agree.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
Are YOU Righteous?
My Blog
Judgment Day Someday (Consider Eternity!)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 2:15:48 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
Are you saying men were not the leaders before the Fall? You say that "removing herself from under the authority of her husband", and then say "because of this she was placed under her husband's authority."
While at creation, the headship of the man was implied (1 Cor. 11:8,9), after the Fall it was stated explicitly (Gen. 3:16). We should always keep in mind that Adam and Eve were a type of Christ and the Church from the very beginning (Eph. 5:29-32). And the roles of Christian men and women are to reflect this truth.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 7:40:48 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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quote:
lw9 Date 3/8/2010 8:59:50 PM
quote:
quote:
gmcspice: Cush, you have to remember that when Paul wrote these letters, that is exactly what they were...... LETTERS!!!!. They were not considered scripture yet.
Seriously??? You personally may not consider Paul's letters to have been scripture, but the Bible says otherwise:
2 Pet 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 HE WRITES THE SAME WAY IN ALL OF HIS LETTERS. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.
Notice Peter considers Paul's letters to be among the other scriptures, and therefore equal even back then. The above passage is talking about exactly what is happening here: Scripture that is difficult for some to accept and is therefore distorted, ignored, or explained away
Not ignoring or explaining away anything.
People including Peter and Paul considered the OT Holy Scripture and the letters that were written by Peter and Paul were exactly as this scripture says--- ADVICE INSPIRED BY GOD. They weren't considered on the same level as the OT note I said... AT THAT TIME!!!!!! Please read all of the post before you start posting word vomit.
Next....
You men keep pointing the finger at us women when you have not done what God has told you to do.
I understand how it is SUPPOSED TO BE. But in this world we live in today, MEN are not being what God made them to be. Period. Don't blame women like Adam did in the Garden. Point that wagging finger at yourselves. If we did not have corruption in the very body of Christ caused by men being lover's of themselves, we would not have this problem at all. Things would be as God originally meant for them to be.
You know what Mr. Ezra, you are the typical male "thinks he knows it all". You want to blame women for your short comings. I apologize but I don't know any other way to put it. You degrade Deborah because she was a woman, but I am here to tell you she did the exact same job as the male judges except that she was female. Oh and she was a Prophetess of God- His mouth piece, WHAT!!!!! She spoke with authority because she was given it by GOD.
If you want women to stop doing the will of God, tell your brothers in Christ to step up to the plate and do what God tells them to do. Until men accept the responsibility, God is going to continue to use women. And tell me what women have lead people astray? Haven't seen any of them.
But I have seen plenty of MEN these days spreading false gospels. David Koresh, James Jones, just to name a few.
The "woman" spoken of in Revelations is actually NOT a real woman but false gospel. You know a metaphor.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 8:03:50 AM
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Saved34
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GMC, you have been given ample scripture from the New Testament on why woman are not called to be leaders in the Church that Christ built. Can you provide clear scripture from the New Testament that goes against what the Holy Spirit taught (through Paul) concerning the submission of the woman in the Church? Bishops and Elders are offices that are appointed to men. Elder woman are to teach younger women in the congregation, but where is it ever implied that a woman is to hold an office of authority in the Church? This is the word of God, not some kind of personal attack. You cannot explain away clear scripture,sister.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 8:32:45 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 1243
Joined: 1/5/2006
From: Alexandria, VA
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quote:
You men keep pointing the finger at us women when you have not done what God has told you to do.
I understand how it is SUPPOSED TO BE. But in this world we live in today, MEN are not being what God made them to be. Period. Don't blame women like Adam did in the Garden. Point that wagging finger at yourselves. If we did not have corruption in the very body of Christ caused by men being lover's of themselves, we would not have this problem at all. Things would be as God originally meant for them to be. This statement is completely false. You sound like Elijah when he thought he was all alone, the only one serving God. God has plenty of good men standing up ,holding forth the word of God. Apostasy is going to come regardless of how many good men and women stand for God. Those are angels of light, they are the devils ministers but that is no reason to just toss out the word of God because you think men are not doing their jobs.
In every age God's people have always been in the minority, those that hold to the truth have always been outnumbered. Christ's true Church has not failed(All born again believers) the local Church was predicted from the beginning to Apostasize,but THE Church has far from failed.God still has his men that are good shepherds. Just as well he has his Godly women who understand the great ministry they have and the importance of utilizing the gifts the Holy Spirit gives them.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 9:37:59 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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Saved if that is the case then WHY is God calling women?
I guess that you have also NOT been watching the news the past 40 years either.
And You have also been given SCRIPTURE that supports women and WHY God calls women.
We are in the end of days and no amount of pointing fingers whining and crying is going to change that.
Paul had plenty of women helpers whom he called by different names and stations that served beside him. He didn't consider himself any better than anyone else.
My stance is biblical, if you don't like it, take it up with God.
All things are done for his glory and he will choose who he wants. As long as men are not obeying God, He will continue to choose women.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 11:43:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2557
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
But woemn were in a position of authority. Over men. So Deborah, who was appointed by God, could lay down the law to the nation, but not teach or preach in the church?
Putting the Myth of Deborah to Rest
There is a huge difference between "laying down the law" and "administering justice". Even today, judges do not "lay down the law". They apply the law in the administration (or mal-administration) of justice.
1. When we read in Jud 4:4 "and Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time", we need to determine carefully what the Hebrew word for "judged" means in this context. It is the word "shaphat" which means "to pronounce sentence (for or against), to administer justice, as a magistrate..." This is a far cry from taking the position of one of Israel's elders.
2. She did not at any point usurp the position of Barak, who was the actual "judge" or "deliverer" of Israel. Instead she sent for him and asked him to do what God had commanded (v.6). Had Deborah been appointed to replace Barak, she would have done what he was supposed to do without involving him.
3. Deborah also told Barak that she would entice Sisera to the river Kishon in order to deliver him into Barak's hand (v. 7). Once again we see that Deborah would not usurp Barak's position.
4. Barak was a coward, and would not go without Deborah (v. 8), so she also told him that he would not receive the honor of destroying Sisera, but instead a woman (Jael) would receive that honor (v. 9).
5. Even so, when the time came for the Lord to deal with Sisera and his chariots, Deborah again encouraged Barak to take action (v. 14). Once again we see that Deborah would not usurp Barak's position.
6. The heroine of the story was Jael, who killed Sisera with a tent peg (v.21). Yet she handed the dead Sisera over to Barak instead of taking Barak's position (v.22). But when the judges are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, neither Deborah nor Jael are mentioned, but rather Barak, with Gideon, Samson, and Jephtha (Heb. 11:32).
Why don't feminists put the myth of Deborah to rest by examining the record? Because this is the one sole exception they can latch onto to "prove" that women can be placed in authority over men. Yet, Deborah simply administered justice and helped Barak, the actual Judge/Deliverer of Israel at this time.
By honestly examining the word of God, one must put to rest the myth YOU presented. NOT ONCE does the bible declare Barak to be a judge. The biblical record is clear that Deborah lead Israel (including Barak). Additionally, 'שפט/judge' is not limited to "administering justice;" it is used time and time again in Scripture to describe those who lead Israel, and it is simply denial to reject this aspect of what it meant to be a judge. There is not one theological dictionary of Hebrew that recognizes the limit of semantic range you have placed on the word שפט/judge'
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 12:42:41 PM
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benelchi
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While I believe Scripture is clear about differing roles for men and women in the church, and is clear that male leadership is God's design. The issue is not so clear cut as many on this forum seem to believe. There are clear examples in the New Testament of woman who did hold positions of authority within the church, and no amount of linguistic gymnastics can minimize that aspect. Trying to assert things like the often claimed "Phobe was a servant, not deacon" fall short when we realize that writings from the 2nd century church demonstrate that the church recognized the office of deaconess.
The often touted "proof text" against any form of woman in leadership or authority over men is 1Ti 2:12 NASB i.e. "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." is not near as clearly a prohibition against woman having any form of authority over men as some would have us believe. When we recognize that the verb 'αὐθεντεῖν/to have authority' used in this verse is used ONLY ONCE in the entire new testament and nowhere else in first century Greek literature, and that the examples we have from 1st and 2nd century B.C. Greek literature have a much more negative meaning i.e. 'to murder' and the simple meaning of 'to have authority' is not found in any Greek literature before the 3rd century AD it poses a much more difficult hermetical challenge. Additionally, when we recognize that every translation in English, Spanish, Latin, etc... prior to the 20th century understood this verb as having a much stronger negative meaning i.e. the KJV for example "to usurp authority" which most biblical scholars (even very conservative ones) believe is a much more accurate translation of this verse, we then we can begin to understand that this verse doesn't prohibit all aspects of women in authority over men. It does clearly prohibit women from taking authority that the male leadership of the church has not allowed, but if the male leadership uses this verse as a reason to prohibit the women God has gifted for leadership from exercising that gift in the church, they have failed the church just as greatly as have women who demand positions of leadership against the direction of the elders of the church have failed the church.
Additionally, the claim that the "husband of one wife" requirement is an indication that women are prohibited from leadership is a ludicrous twisting of Scripture. Churches who use this as a "proof text" for prohibiting women from serving in positions of authority in the church seldom limit leadership positions only to only men who are married because Scripture says that they should be "the husband of one wife" or only to men who have children because Scripture commands them to be "keeping his children under control," to make such a claim would be ludicrous because it would mean that the Apostle Paul was not eligible for leadership in the church.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 1:12:06 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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gmcspice, I know this isn't exactly on topic, but your remarks about men who are not true leaders struck a chord with me. I have learned that when I truly want to know what kind of man/leader someone is, I ask 2 questions:
How does he treat his wife?
How does he treat his children?
Notice I did not say how does he "lead" his wife or how does he "discipline" his children. If a man really, I man really, loves his wife,it's easy to see. And when a man adores his children, it is evident. Our pastor loves his wife. Imean loves her. I don't mean he says nice things from the pulpit to make himself look good. He listens to her intently, squeezes her hand, places his hand on her shoulder, writes sweet things about her cooking and her sense of humor on his facebook page. And he spends lots of time with her and his children. He is so proud of his son, and he takes his daughter on "dates." This is a man who is worthy of leadership. Does he preach the gospel and teach God's Word? Yes. Does he visit Aunt Flossy in the hospital? Absolutely. But he is a real man...you can tell by the way he is with his family.
One of the pastors my H worked with a long time ago also preached a fine sermon. He did his thesis on an evangelistic program he designed. He believed in God's Word. And his wife was one of the most unhappy, beaten down people I have ever known. His children - if he ever bothered to pay attention to them - were firmly reminded that they had better stay in line because of his position. I am not really even sure if he liked his family. Oh, he would say nice plastic things about his wife from the pulpit, but you could see her pained expression when he did. He was not a real man, and not a worthy leader.
I just thought about that when I read your post. It's a good plumb line by which to measure someone's true heart.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
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Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 1:42:51 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 242
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The U.S. of A.
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quote:
Ezra
While at creation, the headship of the man was implied (1 Cor. 11:8,9), after the Fall it was stated explicitly (Gen. 3:16). We should always keep in mind that Adam and Eve were a type of Christ and the Church from the very beginning (Eph. 5:29-32). And the roles of Christian men and women are to reflect this truth.
OK, thanks for clarifying. Appreciate it.
quote:
Gmcspice
Not ignoring or explaining away anything.
People including Peter and Paul considered the OT Holy Scripture and the letters that were written by Peter and Paul were exactly as this scripture says--- ADVICE INSPIRED BY GOD. They weren't considered on the same level as the OT note I said... AT THAT TIME!!!!!! Please read all of the post before you start posting word vomit.
The moment the Lord led those men to write whatever portion of the New Testament they were supposed to write, it had just as much authority, and was just as much Scripture as any Old Testament book or verse. When the pen touched the page.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 8:57:26 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Not ignoring or explaining away anything.
People including Peter and Paul considered the OT Holy Scripture and the letters that were written by Peter and Paul were exactly as this scripture says--- ADVICE INSPIRED BY GOD. They weren't considered on the same level as the OT note I said... AT THAT TIME!!!!!! Please read all of the post before you start posting word vomit.
The epistles were regarded as Scripture from the time they were written. That is why Peter places ALL of Paul's epistles on the same footing as the OT (2 Pet. 3:15,16).
quote:
Next....
You men keep pointing the finger at us women when you have not done what God has told you to do.
No one is pointing the finger at anyone. We are looking at the teachings of Scripture, and if they happen to convict some, then the Holy Spirit is the one does the convicting.
quote:
I understand how it is SUPPOSED TO BE. But in this world we live in today, MEN are not being what God made them to be. Period.
We should never confuse objective Bible truth with subjective observations about people. Neither men nor women are quite meeting the standards God has set.
quote:
Don't blame women like Adam did in the Garden. Point that wagging finger at yourselves. If we did not have corruption in the very body of Christ caused by men being lover's of themselves, we would not have this problem at all. Things would be as God originally meant for them to be.
Actually Adam blamed God instead of blaming himself. And Eve blamed the Serpent instead of blaming herself. Blaming others has since become part of human nature, but this is quite irrelevant to the discussion of Divine principles.
quote:
You know what Mr. Ezra, you are the typical male "thinks he knows it all". You want to blame women for your short comings.
I'm sure you know me better than God does. However, all Christian women have a duty to search the Scriptures and believe the truth. Not the delusions of feminism.
quote:
I apologize but I don't know any other way to put it. You degrade Deborah because she was a woman, but I am here to tell you she did the exact same job as the male judges except that she was female. Oh and she was a Prophetess of God- His mouth piece, WHAT!!!!! She spoke with authority because she was given it by GOD.
I have not denied that Deborah was a prophetess who also administered justice in Israel at the time when Barak failed to do his duty as a Judge/Deliverer. But I have also pointed out that Deborah was careful not to bypass Barak or to usurp authority over him. She encouraged him to do what was right, but did not go any further.
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If you want women to stop doing the will of God, tell your brothers in Christ to step up to the plate and do what God tells them to do. Until men accept the responsibility,
The will of God for women is (a) for wives to submit themselves to their own husbands, (b) keep silence in the churches, (c) wear head coverings during worship to show their submission to both their husbands and the Lord, (d) refrain from preaching and teaching in the local assembly, and (e) teach younger women their Christian duties. You will find all this clearly taught in the Word of God. Believe it!
You will not find a single Scripture which says to women that they are to take over the leadership in the home and in the church while the men are failing to fulfil their responsibilities.
quote:
God is going to continue to use women. And tell me what women have lead people astray? Haven't seen any of them.
God will certainly use women who are submissive to His Word, but He will also chastise women who rebel against the Word. As to women who have led thousands of men astray, consider Ellen G. White and Mary Baker Eddy for starters.
quote:
But I have seen plenty of MEN these days spreading false gospels. David Koresh, James Jones, just to name a few.
There is no denying that these men were false prophets and false teachers, but that does not give women the excuse to reject the clear teaching of Scripture.
quote:
The "woman" spoken of in Revelations is actually NOT a real woman but false gospel. You know a metaphor.
Not really. But then again, a lot of people refuse to interpret Revelation literally even when that is a clear option.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 2:47:25 AM
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gralan
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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Ezra,
to not take the point given, that men in general are guilty of not doing what we are supposed to be doing, is an absolute tragedy. If you can justify all of the failings of males, especially in our marriages and in the church, and just sweep them under the rug with a single sentence barb; well, you are not the honest disciple I thought you claimed to be.
To discuss women's role in the Church is the topic of this thread. But to ignore the failures of men in their roles in the Church is to do disservice to the topic at hand.
Take for example, the churches during the Civil War. Women and older men basically had to make up the leadership, deacons, etc. for the churches to keep functioning. Then the war is over, and now men who have blood on their hands demand that "power" is given back to them.
Since when is being a servant a position of "power"? I'll tell you. Since never.
In one church we went to, I had to explain to someone very plainly and forcefully that all their talk about male supremacy meant nothing in terms of my wife being (1) in subjection or submission to them because they were males (2) that they as males did not have any right to demand my wife answer for me about things to them.
There are many worldly ideas that have gotten mixed up in Christian traditions, especially those groups that say they have no tradition but the Bible.
I wish Christian men, like I'm doing, stand up against the failures of men within our congregations. I wish we Christian men would do what Jesus wants us to do, rather than what others expect us to do per our roles within some cultural setting.
Shame on men and women who think leadership in the Church (1) involves power and (2) is something we can determine by popular vote or by declaration and (3) that it is best to forget history and just plow ahead as if this is all new territory that hasn't already been covered not only by the Bible but as interpreted by the rule of faith and applied in truth within some parts of the Christian Church throughout all of history.
Anyone who wants to be a leader had better either spend enough time on their knees to get the callouses of Praying Hyde, or invest in some good knee pads. That is where the work begins, and we do not need slackers who just want to jump up and start leading.
I'm always available to discuss things. However, if all you want to do is yell at each other in print without listening to anyone else... I can get that from worldly entertainment and they do it better. If you want to act like the world, keep on going. I and some others wish to be members of the Kingdom where we see people acting with wisdom and true knowledge.
I've been active in Churches since 1971. I've seen no progress in the arguments made in this thread from the day I became aware of these issues. Perhaps some reading both of old and new resources would be in order for some folks.
May God grant us the wisdom to submit to Him, and may we remember that in our spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ WE ARE THE BRIDE!
Perhaps it is time we stop acting like the Bridegroom.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 2:51:17 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
Status: offline
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quote:
To discuss women's role in the Church is the topic of this thread.
Correct. It is best to stay on topic, since too many irrelevancies and misinterpretations have already been introduced.
quote:
But to ignore the failures of men in their roles in the Church is to do disservice to the topic at hand.
You can certainly start a new thread entitled "The failures of Christian men in the last 300 years". I would not disagree that many Christian men have miserably failed in their responsibilities. And part of that reason is the way denominational churches are structured and run.
But to be more realisitic and fair, that thread should really say "The failures of Christian men and women in the last 300 years". Both men and women must take responsibility for the problems that plague the churches.
The real issue is that male bashing and feminism (as well as evangelical feminism) go hand in hand. Therefore it is best to stick to the topic and the pertinent Scriptures.
What Christians should understand is that the failures (or perceived failures) of men is not a reason or an excuse for women to usurp authority. God does not sanction such behavior. On the other hand, if Christian women were earnestly and consistently praying for failing Christian men without desiring to take authority over them or desiring to preach and teach in the churches, the Lord would intervene mightily.
When we stand on Scriptural principles, we can be assured of God's help in dealing with all issues.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 2:20:50 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
Status: offline
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quote:
NOT ONCE does the bible declare Barak to be a judge.
Here's another myth that needs to be laid to rest.
1. When the Holy Spirit lists the Judges in Hebrews 11:32, we find the following listed (1) Gideon, (2) BARAK, (3) Samson, and (4) Jephthah. This is God's implicit declaration that Barak was a Judge.
2. When the Holy Spirit inspired the song of Deborah and Barak (Judges chapter 5), He ensured that each one was given their proper place:
(a) Deborah was caused to regard herself as a "mother in Israel" (v. 7). Mothers in Israel were not "elders of Israel".
(b) Deborah was caused to say "My heart is towards the governors of Israel" (v. 9) not "I am a governor in Israel". Big difference.
(c) Barak was caused to say: "Arise Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Then He made him that remaineth TO HAVE DOMINION OVER THE NOBLES AMONG THE PEOPLE. The LORD made me have dominion over the mighty" (vv 12,13). Notice it is "him" not "her".
(d) Barak was regarded as a prince: "And the PRINCES of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak" (v. 15) Princes were leaders in Israel.
(e) Not Deborah, but Jael was declared to be "blessed ABOVE women": "Blessed ABOVE women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be ABOVE women in the tent" (v. 24). As I said earlier, Jael was the true heroine in this saga.
Amazing how the Holy Spirit contradicts the vain imaginations of men and women today.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 1:58:17 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2557
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
NOT ONCE does the bible declare Barak to be a judge.
Here's another myth that needs to be laid to rest.
The only myth that needs to be laid to rest, it the one you keep trying to propagate!
quote:
1. When the Holy Spirit lists the Judges in Hebrews 11:32, we find the following listed (1) Gideon, (2) BARAK, (3) Samson, and (4) Jephthah. This is God's implicit declaration that Barak was a Judge.
There was nothing in Hebrews 11 that implied that Barak was a judge. Hebrews 11 lists those who are recognized as having great faith; it did not give us a list of judges. Many of the judges (including others who were male) were not mentioned in this list, and many who are mentioned in the list given in Hebrews 11 WERE NOT JUDGES! Here is the whole list given in Hebtrews 11 for reference.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets.
Please note: that two of those in the Hebrews 11 list of those who had great faith WERE WOMEN! If this really were an implicit list of judges, then you would have an even greater theological issue to deal with.
quote:
2. When the Holy Spirit inspired the song of Deborah and Barak (Judges chapter 5), He ensured that each one was given their proper place:
(a) Deborah was caused to regard herself as a "mother in Israel" (v. 7). Mothers in Israel were not "elders of Israel".
Chapter and verse that states this please???
Please note: In Hebrew the word elder is simply 'זקן/old' and there are many places in Scripture where "mothers in Israel" are included among the "old".
quote:
(b) Deborah was caused to say "My heart is towards the governors of Israel" (v. 9) not "I am a governor in Israel". Big difference.
The big difference here is that the translation you choose was written 400 years ago, and the words have changed meaning over time. In 1611 a "governer" was synonymous with a "A military leader, commander; ~ of werres; (b) a leader of a band of pilgrims." (From the Middle English dictionary compiled by the University of Michigan). This usage is consistent with the modern translations that use "commanders of Israel"
This verse indicates that Deborah's heart went out to those who were involved in the battle, not those who were "ruling Israel." Just like our presidents today indicate their hearts are with those who are involved in the battles our country fights. Your conclusions here are a gross distortion of Scripture.
quote:
(c) Barak was caused to say: "Arise Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Then He made him that remaineth TO HAVE DOMINION OVER THE NOBLES AMONG THE PEOPLE. The LORD made me have dominion over the mighty" (vv 12,13). Notice it is "him" not "her".
He had "dominion" over the people he had just captured in Battle, just like OUR military commanders have "dominion" over those they capture in Battle. Again the interpretation you offered here is a gross misrepresentation of Scripture.
quote:
(d) Barak was regarded as a prince: "And the PRINCES of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak" (v. 15) Princes were leaders in Israel.
First, Barak was not regarded as a "prince" in this verse. This verse indicates that the "princes of Issachar" were with Deborah and Barak and Issachar were also with Deborah. Your conclusions here again demonstrate a misunderstanding of middle English. Additionally, princes ('שרים') are often described as serving the leaders and kings of Israel, as this verse describes. Here is the actual Hebrew text of this verse, please show me where the Hebrew text ever declares Barak to be a prince.
ושׂרי בישׂשכר עם־דברה וישׂשכר כן ברק בעמק שׁלח ברגליו בפלגות ראובן גדלים חקקי־לב
I would suggest you consider using a modern translation because many of the claims you make demonstrate a poor understanding of middle English grammar and vocabulary leading you to conclusions never intended by the KJV translators.
quote:
(e) Not Deborah, but Jael was declared to be "blessed ABOVE women": "Blessed ABOVE women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be ABOVE women in the tent" (v. 24). As I said earlier, Jael was the true heroine in this saga.
Jael was one of the Heroine's in the saga, but she was not the only one! Because Deborah recognized Jael's contribution doesn't diminish her role as leader (it actually strengthens it). To posit the idea that a leader cannot commend the accomplishments of those who serve under them without demonstrating that they themselves are NOT leaders is simply ludicrous!
quote:
Amazing how the Holy Spirit contradicts the vain imaginations of men and women today.
Here is the only point on which I agree; however, the Holy Spirit (and Scripture) contradicts the "vain imaginations of men and women" who want to impose rules and regulations on women that God NEVER INTENDED just as much as he contradicts the imaginations of Men and Women who will not recognize any difference between the roles of men and women given in Scripture.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 3/11/2010 2:15:23 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 3:36:25 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1850
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
Status: offline
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Greetings Benelchi,
quote:
who want to impose rules and regulations on women that God NEVER INTENDED just as much as he contradicts the imaginations of Men and Women who will not recognize any difference between the roles of men and women given in Scripture.
I am searching for evidence that demonstrates a truth, or as the phrase says I believe that "the proof is in the pudding".
If what you say is correct do you have any examples that you care to share that may benefit my research?
Below is the request I made in post number 6163:
I am curious if anyone knows of a church that is bearing much fruit in the body of Christ whose leader of the flock and teaching Pastor is a woman.
If you do would you be so kind as to provide information or possibly a link to the churches website so that I may gather information?
I am prayerfully considering writing a research thesis on this subject. Thank you.
_____________________________
"Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us...." Nehemiah 9:32
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 10:17:10 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2328
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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I was an elder in such a church, so feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 11:50:49 PM
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lw9
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
gmspice: People including Peter and Paul considered the OT Holy Scripture and the letters that were written by Peter and Paul were exactly as this scripture says--- ADVICE INSPIRED BY GOD. They weren't considered on the same level as the OT note I said... AT THAT TIME!!!!!! Please read all of the post before you start posting word vomit.
What word vomit? The Bible clearly states that Paul's letters were considered scripture, so your claims are untrue. End of debate. Just as the prophets carried God's truth, so did the Biblical authors. There was no magical 'waiting period'. God's word IS God's word.
quote:
Saved if that is the case then WHY is God calling women?
Was David Koresh or Joesph Smith called by God? Well, they said they were so...
Just because someone says they're called by God doesn't make it the truth. God does not contradict Himself and His word does not change, and therefore He is not going to call women into leadership. Women in church leadership are actually in rebellion to God because they are rejecting His word.
You are arguing from emotion rather than from scripture, and the outbursts against others here aren't making your case. Quite the opposite.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 12:29:16 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 1243
Joined: 1/5/2006
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline
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Deborah being a judge in Israel has absolutely no baring on the New Testament ekklēsía. Christ said I WILL build MY Church. It was at the time a yet future thing. The Church is not set up like Israel, it has it's own governments and offices. The Holy Spirit penned down the words the great Apostle gave concerning women having authority in the Church. More than once he said let the woman keep silent in the Churches, I suffer not a woman to teach, let them learn in quiet. You don't have to be a greek scholar to understand precise language. This was to be a guideline in the Churches, and not just some isolated problem in one Church.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Co 14:34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
1Co 14:35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
It is shameful for a woman to stand in the midst of the congregation as one over men, or as a leader or teacher. She may prophecy and pray, but teaching doctrine in the congregation is not permitted. To do so would be her acting of herself, when she should be still and hold the precious office that God has charged her with.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Thinking woman are called to be Bishops and Elders is simply not being honest. Likewise,, thinking God cannot and will not use a woman in the ministry is equally dishonest. In the Church she is charged with quietness and subjection to the man, out in the field there is no such charge. Everything is to be done decent and in order. God The Father, The Lord Jesus, the man, the woman. Men and women are both equal in Christ, but he himself has set the order of leadership. The man is the Head of the woamn.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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