|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
What will the Millennium be like? - 7/31/2010 9:16:11 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shabbat shalom, everyone!
I truly hope you are having a "peaceful rest," enjoying the LORD'S company!
I was thinking about the Millennium this morning. Now, I know that some of you equate the Millennium with the Eternal State when God will bring down the New Jerusalem and tabernacle with us, and I know that some of you believe that THIS age is the Millennium, but I do not believe that Scripture teaches us that.
I am a premillennialist who believes in a separation between the Millennium and the Eternal State of the New Earth, and so I'm asking those who believe in a Millennium or a Thousand-Year time of peace before the Final Judgment at the Great White Throne and before the Eternal State of the New Earth and its New Skies and the descending New Jerusalem, what can we know about this time period?
We have SO MUCH written about "seven years"; what about a THOUSAND YEARS? That's over 142 "seven-year" time periods! So, what's going to happen during that HUGE time period?
Oh, and for those who think the Millennium is the "Thousand-Year Reign of Christ," I've got a little news for you (which really shouldn't come as any great shock):
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
Miryam was told by God's messenger, Gavri'el, that Yeshua` (Jesus) would be a King FOREVER over the house of Ya`acov (Jacob), or the house of Isra'el, and that there would be no end to His Kingdom! Therefore, while He DOES reign over Isra'el for a thousand years, His reign will continue AFTER that as well! The "thousand years" (Greek: "chilia etee") of Rev. 20 is NOT about how long Yeshua` reigns; it's about how long haSatan is imprisoned!
So, let's begin...
What do we KNOW about the Millennium (which is Latin, "mille" + "anni," plural of "annum," for "thousand years," btw)? Why do we believe what we believe about this time period?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 7/31/2010 12:12:46 PM
|
|
|
navyblueret
Posts: 793
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
|
Shabbat Shalom, Roy.
Perfect Millennium? NOPE!
1. Perfect Government.
2. Very imperfect Population, some loyal, some unhappy, and even a few Jack the Ripper types (who are destroyed during the Millennium at a young age (younger than 100, my guess))
3. A period of learning, procreating, and repopulating the earth (renovated, to remove the signs of hostility, and war that ended the Tribulation Seven).
4. Those born in this Millennium will, IMO, not be of the same historicity of we, born in the previous six thousand years. (My opinion makes me a Hairy-Tick, and target for contempt, so I stop this one here).
5. Government rule needs the 'Iron Rod,' to keep the people cognizant of Jesus' perfect rule, but, alas, is not completely successful, even without the influence of Ha-Satan, as noted in that some 'nations' will miss the Feast of Tabernacles, and suffer drought, and plagues for the next year.
6. Progressive, but hidden, 'Falling Away,' throughout the Millennium, so that once the thousand years have been completed, Ha-Satan has a welcome mat (corrupt people anxious to greet him) waiting, so he can lead them astray, once again, for the very Last Time.
7. Jesus closes out the Millennium with: A WORD, and then, the Great White Throne Judgment, with the final 'Dross' (bad folk) adjudged to the Lake of Fire, in a set sequencing, noted in Revelation to John.
8. AND THEN, ETERNITY, with Jesus, as Royal Family, for the 'Overcomers' from Ha-Satan's corruption. Yeee-Haaa!!! and AMEN
I pray I didn't miss too much, with this 'Off the Cuff' espousal.
In Messiah, His Blessing on you, my brother, and all the family of God/Jesus. Arley
PS: I am now a joint-Admin at Prophecy Watchers Forum, small but coming to life, I pray.
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 7/31/2010 12:20:17 PM
|
|
|
navyblueret
Posts: 793
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
|
Fast addition to my above:
8a. Once the judging is finished, at the GWTJ, I have had a recurrent dream, that Jesus goes behind the Throne, on what we would see as the Left, but His right hand side, as He would be facing us, and re-presents himself on what we would see as the right side, as God. In the dream, Jesus sort of does it in Vaudeville dance type movements, sort of like 'Hello my Darling,' with straw hat and dancing cane.
Don't scream, folks, I only relate what I saw in my dream, and if I am breaking TOS,, please delete this. I just felt I should share it, today, since this happened a few years back. Remember, I am getting old, and have a lot of 'some years, back.'
In Messiah, I report, you decide. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 7/31/2010 4:28:21 PM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
As a postmillenialist, I believe we are in the millenium now. The Lord Jesus came into His kingdom in the first century, the Gospel is spreading, and Satan is bound.
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 7/31/2010 6:04:05 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shabbat shalom, wkklein722.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
As a postmillenialist, I believe we are in the millenium now. The Lord Jesus came into His kingdom in the first century, the Gospel is spreading, and Satan is bound.
With all due respect, if haSatan is "bound," they tied him up with a wet noodle! HaSatan is definitely NOT bound! The Enemy is still rampant and free to create havoc and mayhem...and is doing a pretty good job at it!
And, as far as "the Gospel spreading," most Christians have absolutely NO idea what the "good news about the Kingdom" is! Most think the "Gospel" is defined in I Cor. 15:1-4! That's NOT the definition of the "Gospel!" That's an ADDITION to the "Gospel." The definition had to be made prior to Mark 1:14-15:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
And, based on other Scriptures which reference the "Gospel" or the "good news" about the Kingdom (such as Matt. 11:5 and Luke 4:18-19, which are references to Isa. 61:1-2), the "Gospel" or the "good news" about the Kingdom is best seen defined in Isaiah 35:1-10, 40:1-9, and 52:1-10. Notice, for instance, that in Mark 1:14-15, the people of Isra'el to whom Yeshua` is talking did not have to be told what the "good news about the Kingdom" was; they were just told to change their minds and BELIEVE what they already knew!
Finally, while Yeshua` did OFFER the Kingdom while He was here, it was REJECTED by those with the authority to accept it. So, Yeshua` in turn rejected THEM and took His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM as He left the earth (Matt. 23:37-39). He, the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed to be King, will return WITH HIS OFFER OF THE KINGDOM one day since He "will come again as you have seen Him go into the sky" (Acts 1:9-10), and present Himself as Isra'el's King again. This time He will be accepted and become, first, King of Y'hudah, second, King of all Yisra'el, and third, King of kings, as He becomes Emperor of the world.
However, He is not NOW the King He is promised to be. We may prematurely count ourselves His subjects early, but His Kingdom is not yet upon the earth. That's why we were instructed to pray for such in His model prayer.
Now, as I said, I knew there were some of you who believe the way you believe, so my question was not directed to you, but thank you for your input! Hopefully, I have explained well enough why I believe otherwise.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/1/2010 9:20:41 AM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, wkklein722.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
As a postmillenialist, I believe we are in the millenium now. The Lord Jesus came into His kingdom in the first century, the Gospel is spreading, and Satan is bound.
With all due respect, if haSatan is "bound," they tied him up with a wet noodle! HaSatan is definitely NOT bound! The Enemy is still rampant and free to create havoc and mayhem...and is doing a pretty good job at it!
And, as far as "the Gospel spreading," most Christians have absolutely NO idea what the "good news about the Kingdom" is! Most think the "Gospel" is defined in I Cor. 15:1-4! That's NOT the definition of the "Gospel!" That's an ADDITION to the "Gospel." The definition had to be made prior to Mark 1:14-15:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
And, based on other Scriptures which reference the "Gospel" or the "good news" about the Kingdom (such as Matt. 11:5 and Luke 4:18-19, which are references to Isa. 61:1-2), the "Gospel" or the "good news" about the Kingdom is best seen defined in Isaiah 35:1-10, 40:1-9, and 52:1-10. Notice, for instance, that in Mark 1:14-15, the people of Isra'el to whom Yeshua` is talking did not have to be told what the "good news about the Kingdom" was; they were just told to change their minds and BELIEVE what they already knew!
Finally, while Yeshua` did OFFER the Kingdom while He was here, it was REJECTED by those with the authority to accept it. So, Yeshua` in turn rejected THEM and took His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM as He left the earth (Matt. 23:37-39). He, the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed to be King, will return WITH HIS OFFER OF THE KINGDOM one day since He "will come again as you have seen Him go into the sky" (Acts 1:9-10), and present Himself as Isra'el's King again. This time He will be accepted and become, first, King of Y'hudah, second, King of all Yisra'el, and third, King of kings, as He becomes Emperor of the world.
However, He is not NOW the King He is promised to be. We may prematurely count ourselves His subjects early, but His Kingdom is not yet upon the earth. That's why we were instructed to pray for such in His model prayer.
Now, as I said, I knew there were some of you who believe the way you believe, so my question was not directed to you, but thank you for your input! Hopefully, I have explained well enough why I believe otherwise.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy,
Blessings to you!
Regarding the binding of Satan; I am having a similiar discussion in the "Harlot" thread. Matthew chapter 12 speaks of the binding of the "strongman." The context warrants that that "strongman" be Satan.
quote:
Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
Roy, you said:
However, He is not NOW the King He is promised to be. We may prematurely count ourselves His subjects early, but His Kingdom is not yet upon the earth. That's why we were instructed to pray for such in His model prayer.
In Matthew 28, at the Great Commission, Jesus said:
quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
May God bless you and your family,
Wayne
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/2/2010 12:12:37 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
Roy,
Blessings to you!
Regarding the binding of Satan; I am having a similiar discussion in the "Harlot" thread. Matthew chapter 12 speaks of the binding of the "strongman." The context warrants that that "strongman" be Satan.
quote:
Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
While Yeshua` DID say that one could not carry off a strong man's possessions unless he ties him up first, He did NOT say that He had done so, and He especially did not say that He had so tied up haSatan! Every indication in Revelation 20 says that event--the chaining of haSatan--will occur AFTER the Lord Yeshua` haMashiach returns (i.e., at His second advent) and battles the beast, the false prophet, and the beast's army.
A clue is found in Rev. 19:20: The beast and the false prophet were both cast into the lake of fire burning with sulfur. This was accomplished BEFORE haSatan was chained and sealed in the unsounded depths of the pit. THEN, the remnant were slain and the fowls of the air were filled with their flesh, and AFTER THAT, the dragon was chained and sealed in the pit for 1000 years. However, the dragon or the devil (which are one in the same, according to Rev. 20:2) was not throne into that lake of fire until AFTER he was set free, AFTER the 1000 years in Rev. 20:10! Remember: chapter divisions are ARTIFICIAL and are not inspired nor were they in the original versions. Thus, there is no reason (except for one's unfounded preferences) for thinking that Rev. 20 backs up to the days of Yeshua`s first advent! The narration continues from chapter 19 to chapter 20 with no break!
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
Roy, you said:
However, He is not NOW the King He is promised to be. We may prematurely count ourselves His subjects early, but His Kingdom is not yet upon the earth. That's why we were instructed to pray for such in His model prayer.
In Matthew 28, at the Great Commission, Jesus said:
quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
May God bless you and your family,
Wayne
Yes, all authority--both in the sky and on the earth--has been given to Yeshua`, but that does NOT mean that He began His reign then! To the contrary, the disciples asked Him just before He rose into the sky,
Acts 1:6
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
KJV
Yeshua` did not contradict them nor did He correct them. Instead, He just answered,...
Acts 1:7-8
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV
Therefore, Yeshua` was openly admitting that it was NOT the time yet to restore the Kingdom to Isra'el. However, it is important to note that He did not say that such a time was soon to come nor that it had already come. Instead, He was implying that it would not be restored in their lifetimes and that their focus would have to be shifted to furthering the witness within Yerushalayim, Isra'el, to the rest of the tribe of Y'hudah (the Jews), and in Shomron (the Samaritans or the Isra'eli half-breeds to the north of Y'hudah), and then to the rest of the earth. Yeshua` took His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el with Him; one cannot have a Kingdom without the presence of the King!
He pronounced woes (Greek: "ouai", a cry of grief, like a person today might cry out, "Why?") on the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23, and then He concludes with HIS rejection of them for their rejection of Him:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
And, once again, I will remind the reader that this underlined sentence is a direct quote from Psalm 118:26:
Ps 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV
The Hebrew of this phrase is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," but "Baruwk haba' " literally means "Happy [is] the-comer" and is used today to welcome someone into a Jewish home. Indeed, the phrase is in plural above the airport gates in Tel Aviv, welcoming visitors to Isra'el! Thus, while the phrase LITERALLY means "Happy [is] the-comer in-name [of] YHVH," it MEANS "Welcome, comer on YHVH's authority!" And, it is clear from the context that Yeshua` was referring to Himself as the Comer. So, until the Jews in Isra'el, particularly those who are the elders of Y'hudah, can say, "Welcome, Comer (Yeshua`) on YHVH's authority," He will NOT come back! It is the group of elders in Isra'el, particularly the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah (the Jews), who have the responsibility to accept Him as their King!
Thank you, Wayne, for your blessing wish. God is indeed keeping me and my family very happy, particularly as we love Him with "all our hearts, all our souls, all our minds, and all our strength." May He do as well for you and yours.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/2/2010 9:54:56 AM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
Roy,
Blessings to you!
Regarding the binding of Satan; I am having a similiar discussion in the "Harlot" thread. Matthew chapter 12 speaks of the binding of the "strongman." The context warrants that that "strongman" be Satan.
quote:
Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
While Yeshua` DID say that one could not carry off a strong man's possessions unless he ties him up first, He did NOT say that He had done so, and He especially did not say that He had so tied up haSatan! Every indication in Revelation 20 says that event--the chaining of haSatan--will occur AFTER the Lord Yeshua` haMashiach returns (i.e., at His second advent) and battles the beast, the false prophet, and the beast's army.
A clue is found in Rev. 19:20: The beast and the false prophet were both cast into the lake of fire burning with sulfur. This was accomplished BEFORE haSatan was chained and sealed in the unsounded depths of the pit. THEN, the remnant were slain and the fowls of the air were filled with their flesh, and AFTER THAT, the dragon was chained and sealed in the pit for 1000 years. However, the dragon or the devil (which are one in the same, according to Rev. 20:2) was not throne into that lake of fire until AFTER he was set free, AFTER the 1000 years in Rev. 20:10! Remember: chapter divisions are ARTIFICIAL and are not inspired nor were they in the original versions. Thus, there is no reason (except for one's unfounded preferences) for thinking that Rev. 20 backs up to the days of Yeshua`s first advent! The narration continues from chapter 19 to chapter 20 with no break!
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
Roy, you said:
However, He is not NOW the King He is promised to be. We may prematurely count ourselves His subjects early, but His Kingdom is not yet upon the earth. That's why we were instructed to pray for such in His model prayer.
In Matthew 28, at the Great Commission, Jesus said:
quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
May God bless you and your family,
Wayne
Yes, all authority--both in the sky and on the earth--has been given to Yeshua`, but that does NOT mean that He began His reign then! To the contrary, the disciples asked Him just before He rose into the sky,
Acts 1:6
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
KJV
Yeshua` did not contradict them nor did He correct them. Instead, He just answered,...
Acts 1:7-8
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV
Therefore, Yeshua` was openly admitting that it was NOT the time yet to restore the Kingdom to Isra'el. However, it is important to note that He did not say that such a time was soon to come nor that it had already come. Instead, He was implying that it would not be restored in their lifetimes and that their focus would have to be shifted to furthering the witness within Yerushalayim, Isra'el, to the rest of the tribe of Y'hudah (the Jews), and in Shomron (the Samaritans or the Isra'eli half-breeds to the north of Y'hudah), and then to the rest of the earth. Yeshua` took His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el with Him; one cannot have a Kingdom without the presence of the King!
He pronounced woes (Greek: "ouai", a cry of grief, like a person today might cry out, "Why?") on the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23, and then He concludes with HIS rejection of them for their rejection of Him:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
And, once again, I will remind the reader that this underlined sentence is a direct quote from Psalm 118:26:
Ps 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV
The Hebrew of this phrase is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," but "Baruwk haba' " literally means "Happy [is] the-comer" and is used today to welcome someone into a Jewish home. Indeed, the phrase is in plural above the airport gates in Tel Aviv, welcoming visitors to Isra'el! Thus, while the phrase LITERALLY means "Happy [is] the-comer in-name [of] YHVH," it MEANS "Welcome, comer on YHVH's authority!" And, it is clear from the context that Yeshua` was referring to Himself as the Comer. So, until the Jews in Isra'el, particularly those who are the elders of Y'hudah, can say, "Welcome, Comer (Yeshua`) on YHVH's authority," He will NOT come back! It is the group of elders in Isra'el, particularly the elders of the tribe of Y'hudah (the Jews), who have the responsibility to accept Him as their King!
Thank you, Wayne, for your blessing wish. God is indeed keeping me and my family very happy, particularly as we love Him with "all our hearts, all our souls, all our minds, and all our strength." May He do as well for you and yours.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy,
Blessings! I only have a second to respond to one of the statements, but am enjoying our conversation so far.
You said:
quote:
While Yeshua` DID say that one could not carry off a strong man's possessions unless he ties him up first, He did NOT say that He had done so, and He especially did not say that He had so tied up haSatan! Every indication in Revelation 20 says that event--the chaining of haSatan--will occur AFTER the Lord Yeshua` haMashiach returns (i.e., at His second advent) and battles the beast, the false prophet, and the beast's army.
I would argue that Christ came back in A.D. 70 (not his second coming, that's still in the future) in judgment.
quote:
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Coming on the clouds is a euphemism for judgement. A close parallel is Isaiah 19.1:
quote:
An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them
Also, the question is, who pierced the Lord? One can make the statment that it was the Romans and obviously this is true, but it was the Jews who sent Christ to His death.
An example would be Matthew 27:25 - quote:
All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
God was coming in judgement on the Jews in the first century because they crucified their Messiah. The events spoken of in John's vision are of the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
A little side note: The word earth in verse 7 is probably better translated land. The greek word is Ge.
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/2/2010 10:37:05 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
...
Roy,
Blessings! I only have a second to respond to one of the statements, but am enjoying our conversation so far.
You said:
quote:
While Yeshua` DID say that one could not carry off a strong man's possessions unless he ties him up first, He did NOT say that He had done so, and He especially did not say that He had so tied up haSatan! Every indication in Revelation 20 says that event--the chaining of haSatan--will occur AFTER the Lord Yeshua` haMashiach returns (i.e., at His second advent) and battles the beast, the false prophet, and the beast's army.
I would argue that Christ came back in A.D. 70 (not his second coming, that's still in the future) in judgment.
You can argue that if you want to, but how can you justify it in the Scriptures? Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) did NOT come back, in judgment or otherwise. What? A "1.5th coming?" That makes less sense than sticking to the second coming!
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
quote:
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Coming on the clouds is a euphemism for judgement. ...
It's not a "euphemism" at all! It's a literal statement! Consider Acts 1:9-11 again:
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV
Just as Yeshua` was received by a cloud obscuring their vision of His departure, when He returns He will come back through the clouds! It's not a "euphemism" nor is it a mystery. That's how Yeshua will return! And, take note: There is NO mention of Him returning, "in judgment" or otherwise, PRIOR to His arrival through the clouds.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
A close parallel is Isaiah 19.1:
quote:
An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them
Also, the question is, who pierced the Lord? One can make the statment that it was the Romans and obviously this is true, but it was the Jews who sent Christ to His death.
An example would be Matthew 27:25 - quote:
All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
God was coming in judgement on the Jews in the first century because they crucified their Messiah. The events spoken of in John's vision are of the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
A little side note: The word earth in verse 7 is probably better translated land. The greek word is Ge.
There are a few things that need to be mentioned here. First of all, while the Jews had their guilt, so did the rest of the world. Indeed, we learn from Scripture,...
Isa. 53:4-6
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
KJV
But, we also learn from Scripture that Yeshua` was not killed by the Jews, by the Romans, or by us through our sins; the FATHER killed Him!
Isa. 53:10-11
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
KJV
Secondly, it is dangerous to harbor ill will toward the Jews because of their treatment of their Messiah. While they certainly did wrong in having Yeshua` crucified, the Scriptures are quite clear that one should not "touch the apple (pupil) of His eye" (Deut. 32:8-15; Zech. 2:8-10). Such ill will was a hallmark of stupid Christians in Medieval Europe, hounding and persecuting the Jews from country to country. That anti-semitic attitude ruled the day back then, and we need to STAMP OUT ANTI-SEMITISM wherever we find it! They are "BELOVED for the patriarchs' sakes" (Rom. 11:28)!
Thirdly, God did not need to "come against the Jews in judgment." All He had to do was lift His hand of blessing and protection off of them, and hateful people would do the rest. By turning His back on them, they suffered.
Fourthly, Rav Sha'ul (Paul) was quite clear about how we Gentiles need to respect and treat the Jewish people:
Rom 11:11-32
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV
You're right, though, about Rev. 1:7:
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV
Every eye shall see Yeshua` as He comes through the clouds, and it IS talking about the Isra'elites, for it was they who pierced Him, and it is all families of the Land who shall wail because of Him. This will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:7-14:
Zech 12:7-14
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
These four family names are found in this order in one other place of Scripture: Luke 3!
Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV
Thus, these names are related VERTICALLY in their family tree, not horizontally! As such, this tells us that this must occur AFTER the resurrection of the just, the first resurrection, because they are CONCURRENTLY mourning for Yeshua` as both their Firstborn and their only Son!
We, believers, both Gentile Christians and Jewish believers, have been separated FAR too long! As a Messianic believer, I believe that we should come together, Jew and Gentile, and worship the Master together, as was originally intended.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
P.S. - I, too, am enjoying our conversation. I pray that we will grow together in unity.
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/3/2010 9:18:48 AM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
You can argue that if you want to, but how can you justify it in the Scriptures? Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) did NOT come back, in judgment or otherwise. What? A "1.5th coming?" That makes less sense than sticking to the second coming!
When I read Revelation, there are time texts - as Kenneth Gentry points out - that require a "soon" coming. These include: Rev 1:3 and Rev. 22:20. How are we to square these two passages (there are more I can point out) 2000 years later. I believe that he DID come back in judgement against the Jews for their rejection. In the Old Testament Yahweh used the Babylonians, Egyptians, etc. in judgement against the Israelites; it's no different in the New Testament - God used the Romans.
Also, we have to be careful in our reading of Revelation. Despite what some say, the Lord never said he would come back and set up an earthly kingdom - at least not until the New Jerusalem.
On another note, Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse) mentions Jesus talking to His disciples and as he looks over at the Herodian temple, He says, "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." Looking to Revelation 11 -
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months
the temple that was in view in Matthew 24 is still standing. Some may posit a rebuilt temple, but there is absolutley NO evidence in the Word that the temple will be rebuilt. All this can mean is that the Herodian temple in Matt. 24 is the same temple in Rev. 11. In fact, This Trampling Underfoot Of Jerusalem Occurred During The Jewish War that ended with the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. The war lasted exactly 42 months: from spring, A.D. 67 through August, A.D. 70.
I found this timeline, I hope it helps: http://en.preterism.com/index.php?title=Outline_to_Covenant_Eschatology
quote:
That's how Yeshua will return! And, take note: There is NO mention of Him returning, "in judgment" or otherwise, PRIOR to His arrival through the clouds.
Again, I believe there is mention of Him returning in judgment, but there will also be a second coming. We know this through Thessalonians 1 4:16-17. While some take this for a pretrib rapture, it's not! Reading the passage in context, i.e. the dead in Christ will rise first, it sounds alot like the second coming and the first judgment mentioned in Revelation 20: 11-15.
quote:
Fourthly, Rav Sha'ul (Paul) was quite clear about how we Gentiles need to respect and treat the Jewish people:
While, I take the replacement theology view, I am by no means anti-semitic. That being said, we know from Galatians 3: 26-29 that there is NO difference between the two groups anymore:
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
I am not sure if you're a Dispensationlist, but I would recommend Keith Mathisons Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?
While Romans 11 does cause some trouble, and instead of responding to the question, I will post a link to an article that I think will be helpful:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2004_gunter-jim_romans_11-26.html
In Christ, Wayne
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 12:24:13 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, my brother Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wkklein722
quote:
You can argue that if you want to, but how can you justify it in the Scriptures? Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) did NOT come back, in judgment or otherwise. What? A "1.5th coming?" That makes less sense than sticking to the second coming!
When I read Revelation, there are time texts - as Kenneth Gentry points out - that require a "soon" coming. These include: Rev 1:3 and Rev. 22:20. How are we to square these two passages (there are more I can point out) 2000 years later. I believe that he DID come back in judgement against the Jews for their rejection. In the Old Testament Yahweh used the Babylonians, Egyptians, etc. in judgement against the Israelites; it's no different in the New Testament - God used the Romans.
Let's look at these two passages in particular:
Rev 1:1-3
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV
The phrase "for the time is at hand" (Greek: "ho gar kairos eggus" = literally "the for time throttled") simply means that it is within one's grasp! It does NOT mean, as some translations render it, "for the time is near!" It is not talking about a "soon coming" nor is it a "time text." It is talking about the SURENESS of the time coming! Look at the meaning of the word "eggus" (or "engus," depending on your method of transliteration) and then look at the meaning of the word "kairos" in relation to that meaning:
NT:1451 eggus (eng-goos'); from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of NT:43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):
KJV - from at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.
NT:2540 kairos (kahee-ros'); of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:
KJV - always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare NT:5550.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that this verse means that it will be soon or was soon. That's not the point! The point is that the set time is CAUGHT! It is CAPTURED and therefore is ASSURED.
Rev 22:18-21
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV
The Greek phrase is "Nai erchomai tachu," and the key here is the word "tachu" which is the neuter singular of "tachus":
NT:5035 tachu (takh-oo'); neuter singular of NT:5036 (as adverb); shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:
KJV - lightly, quickly.
NT:5036 tachus (takh-oos'); of uncertain affinity; fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready:
KJV - swift.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
So, the point here is not that He will come SOON, but that WHEN He comes, He will come SUDDENLY! It is the same thought behind His words in Matt. 24 and 25:
Matt 24:42-46
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
KJV
Matt 25:10-13
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
KJV
In Rev. 2:16; 3:11; 11:14; 22:7, 12, 20, the word was always translated "quickly" in the KJV for good reason. The word is the root word of our word "tachyon," which is a particle that theoretically travels faster than the speed of light. THAT'S its primary meaning. It should be translated (for us, anyway) as "speedily" or "suddenly."
(More to come when I have a little more time.)
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 8:56:16 AM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
Roy,
I am gald you mentioned Matthew 24. Here is 24:32-35
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
When the Lord was speaking to his disciples, regarding the temple, he spoke of their generation. We know that a generation is around 40 years. If Christ was speaking around A.D 30-33, then it would be a generation when the temple fell. Some may posit that this generation means the Jewish race, but this is begging the question. The text really needs to be mishandled to mean the Jewish race.
(Note taken from the article I posted in my last post)
quote:
(Jesus’ use of "this generation" throughout the gospels always refers to his contemporaries: 26:36; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42 and 45; Luke 11:50-51; 17:25; Mk 8:38)
This would be a perfect fit with Rev. 1:3, 2:16, etc. Here is an article regarding the time texts that may be helpful: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2003_demar_time-texts.html
Lets look at Revelation 2:16 and following for a second. The Lord says, quote:
"Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
In chapter 2 and 3 of John's vision, there are the seven churches that are in view. These are first century churches and what does Christ say to the church in Pergamum?: You (emphasis mine) better repent, or I (Jesus) will come soon.
We could look at everyone of the time texts, but you know where I am coming from.
Again, Galatians 3 speaks of there being NO difference between Jew and Greek (gentile) if we belong to Christ. We are both Abraham's seed.
Blessings,
Wayne
P.S. I am not here to change your mind, just posit why I believe Revelation speaks of a 1st century fulfillment rather than a distant future fulfillment.
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 7:09:04 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 422
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
Wayne
The parable of the fig tree is a reference to the timing. When you see the fig tree leaf, you know that summer is near.
Now just as Matt 24 - 6,7 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
v.14 - And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Wars, famine, earthquakes are just signs (as the fig leaf is a sign of the approaching summer) of the up coming end of this dispensation. They are birth pains; many occur before the delivery. It is the generation that see these things happening to which will see the end.
Dan 12 : 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the A/D is set up there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the 1,335 days. As for you go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of those days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
The end of days is 1,335 days after the A/D is set up. All this is yet future.
There are birth pains, but the end is not yet; But not until the A/D is set up does it give a time frame for the end to occur.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 7:51:56 PM
|
|
|
SuspenseWriter
Posts: 482
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Fast addition to my above:
8a. Once the judging is finished, at the GWTJ, I have had a recurrent dream, that Jesus goes behind the Throne, on what we would see as the Left, but His right hand side, as He would be facing us, and re-presents himself on what we would see as the right side, as God. In the dream, Jesus sort of does it in Vaudeville dance type movements, sort of like 'Hello my Darling,' with straw hat and dancing cane.
Don't scream, folks, I only relate what I saw in my dream, and if I am breaking TOS,, please delete this. I just felt I should share it, today, since this happened a few years back. Remember, I am getting old, and have a lot of 'some years, back.'
In Messiah, I report, you decide. Arley
I agree with you, Arley.
And your dream made me smile. 
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer
Until the Last Dog Dies, When Skylarks Fall, To Skin a Cat, and Heading Home. Coming: The Radiance (August 2011), and Relentless (August 2012)
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blo
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 7:52:34 PM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
Montana Marv,
I apologize for this brief response. I will fully engage your response when the time permits.
I will show you using both the Bible and outside sources where there were famines, earthquakes, etc. right before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
I will also repsond to Daniel, especially the 70 "sevens", and show where they are fufilled in the 1st century.
I apologize that I can't do it right now
Blessings,
Wayne
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 9:08:30 PM
|
|
|
ENOCH2010
Posts: 131
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Wayne
The parable of the fig tree is a reference to the timing. When you see the fig tree leaf, you know that summer is near.
Now just as Matt 24 - 6,7 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
v.14 - And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Wars, famine, earthquakes are just signs (as the fig leaf is a sign of the approaching summer) of the up coming end of this dispensation. They are birth pains; many occur before the delivery. It is the generation that see these things happening to which will see the end.
Dan 12 : 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the A/D is set up there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the 1,335 days. As for you go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of those days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
The end of days is 1,335 days after the A/D is set up. All this is yet future.
There are birth pains, but the end is not yet; But not until the A/D is set up does it give a time frame for the end to occur.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Marv are you finally seeing that the first resurrection and rapture are the same event 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 10:41:33 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 422
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Wayne
The parable of the fig tree is a reference to the timing. When you see the fig tree leaf, you know that summer is near.
Now just as Matt 24 - 6,7 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
v.14 - And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Wars, famine, earthquakes are just signs (as the fig leaf is a sign of the approaching summer) of the up coming end of this dispensation. They are birth pains; many occur before the delivery. It is the generation that see these things happening to which will see the end.
Dan 12 : 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the A/D is set up there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the 1,335 days. As for you go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of those days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
The end of days is 1,335 days after the A/D is set up. All this is yet future.
There are birth pains, but the end is not yet; But not until the A/D is set up does it give a time frame for the end to occur.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Marv are you finally seeing that the first resurrection and rapture are the same event
Enoch
I see them as two separate events. The end of days is pin pointed by the A/D, or 1,355 days following this event. This is the Second Coming. Many, many scriptures pertain to the timing of the Second Coming.
Luke 12:40, Matt 24:44 - Be ready because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. But God the Father is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture, or removal of the Bride. If God the Father is the ONLY one who know the timing of this event, it is not revealed in Scripture. Your guess is just as good as Harold Camping.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 11:00:57 PM
|
|
|
ENOCH2010
Posts: 131
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
|
I don't think so,I see HC as a pre tribber,I on the other hand am a post tribber/pre millennial Christian.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/4/2010 11:24:00 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 422
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
I don't think so,I see HC as a pre tribber,I on the other hand am a post tribber/pre millennial Christian.
Enoch
Where into captivity do you wish to go. Where will those of your family go. It is usually a practice to separate kin when sending them into captivity. One may go to Baghdad, another may go to Mecca, another to Rome, and yet another to Singapore. How good of a slave will you be. Can you make it to the end??? No one really knows. Death may come before the end to some; but that is happening now, isn't it. No one knows the day or hour of their death. The same with the Rapture, no one knows the day or hour of it either. Only two guarantees, One, eternity with Christ ; or Two eternity without Christ. The Rapture has no real bearing to those already dead in Christ, except that their bodies rise first. Then those who are still alive rise Second.
When is the First Resurrection for those who are living and born during the Mill.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/5/2010 8:32:13 AM
|
|
|
ENOCH2010
Posts: 131
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
|
It's my understanding that they're will be no death during the Millennium,only peace and safety in the arms of the Lord.The only Resurrection after the Millennium,will be the Great White Thrown Judgement,which we all agree is for the all the evil people that have plagued the world since it's creation. I tried to answer your question,so I have one for you........What makes the present Church more worthy to escape Tribulation than the early Church?It appears to me that the early Church had to endure Tribulation,have you read the Book of Martyrs.They weren't raptured out before their Tribulation were they.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/5/2010 10:46:52 AM
|
|
|
wkklein722
Posts: 55
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
|
[/quote]
Marv are you finally seeing that the first resurrection and rapture are the same event
[/quote]
Enoch,
I believe you are right. While hold to a postmillenial eschatology, let's take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17:
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Many take this passage as the Rapture; I concur, but it is clearly talking about the first resurrection. The latter part of the verse 16 says, "and the dead in Christ will rise first." This is clearly a resurrection, not a pre-trib rapture. It can't be 2 seperate events, the flow of the text doesn't allow it.
Marv,
I still haven't forgotten about you; I am in the process of gathering up my sources for response.
God bless both of you,
Wayne
_____________________________
If man created God, why did he create Him so holy?
-R.C. Sproul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/5/2010 12:06:07 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 11847
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please note that Preterists may ONLY discuss their end-time views in the "All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread." Further end-times related posts outside of that thread will be deleted and reported.
CLICK HERE to go to the Preterism thread.
Please contact admin at community@salemwebnetwork.com with any comments or questions regarding this.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/6/2010 10:44:07 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Wayne
The parable of the fig tree is a reference to the timing. When you see the fig tree leaf, you know that summer is near.
Now just as Matt 24 - 6,7 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
v.14 - And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Wars, famine, earthquakes are just signs (as the fig leaf is a sign of the approaching summer) of the up coming end of this dispensation. They are birth pains; many occur before the delivery. It is the generation that see these things happening to which will see the end.
Thank you for jumping right in and "pinch hitting" for me! You're right! Just look at the length of the average war: It's not very often you hear of a "Six-Day War"; most of the time they are more like the "100-Years War," and they don't happen all at once, and they have (usually short) periods of peace in between! Thus, the very phrase "wars and rumors of wars" speaks to a long time to come!
"Near" is such a relative thing, even in our way of thinking. Think of when the trees first begin to bud in the Spring. THAT'S what the Greek word, "hapalos," that was used to translate Yeshua`s Aramaic words, means! It means when the branch first begins to be soft to bud! So, effectively, He is saying, "When Spring first starts you know that Summer is near." But, "near" is dependent on the growing season and how much rain was received that year! We could be talking of anywhere from 2 to 4 months away! As an analogy for the how SOON it will arrive, it's more of a "be patient; summer's on its way!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Dan 12 : 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the A/D is set up there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the 1,335 days. As for you go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of those days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
The end of days is 1,335 days after the A/D is set up. All this is yet future.
There are birth pains, but the end is not yet; But not until the A/D is set up does it give a time frame for the end to occur.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Well, you should have quit while you were ahead. Let me just make it simple: Don't use Dani'el's prophecy for determining a time frame for the end to occur. In the first place, most misinterpret Dani'el, and in the second place, the "abomination that makes desolation" is often misunderstood.
Let me give you a suggestion; take it or leave it, as you will: Read Dani'el out of a Hebrew Tanakh written as a translation for English-speaking Jews to read. Dani'el is such a mystifying and confusing book anyway, that it's too confusing to the Jewish translators for them to catch every prophecy about the first coming of the Mashiach (Messiah), and thus they will translate the book as faithfully to the Hebrew language as they are able. Here's what the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh's version says: (This is just the last portion of the vision that starts in chapter 10.)
Dani'el 11:21-45; 12:1-13
11:21 “His place will be taken by a contemptible man, on whom royal majesty was not conferred; he will come in unawares and seize the kingdom through trickery. 22 The forces of the flood will be overwhelmed by him and will be broken, and so too the covenant leader. 23 And, from the time an alliance is made with him, he will practice deceit; and he will rise to power with a small band. 24 He will invade the richest of provinces unawares, and will do what his father and forefathers never did, lavishing on them spoil, booty, and wealth; he will have designs upon strongholds, but only for a time.
25 “He will muster his strength and courage against the king of the south with a great army. The king of the south will wage war with a very great and powerful army but will not stand fast, for they will devise plans against him. 26 Those who eat of his food will ruin him. His army will be overwhelmed, and many will fall slain. 27 The minds of both kings will be bent on evil; while sitting at the table together, they will lie to each other, but to no avail, for there is yet an appointed term. 28 He will return to his land with great wealth, his mind set against the holy covenant. Having done his pleasure, he will return to his land. 29 At the appointed time, he will again invade the south, but the second time will not be like the first. 30 Ships from Kittim will come against him. He will be checked, and will turn back, raging against the holy covenant. Having done his pleasure, he will then attend to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 Forces will be levied by him; they will desecrate the temple, the fortress; they will abolish the regular offering and set up the appalling abomination. 32 He will flatter with smooth words those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people devoted to their God will stand firm. 33 The knowledgeable among the people will make the many understand; and for a while they shall fall by sword and flame, suffer captivity and spoliation. 34 In defeat, they will receive a little help, and many will join them insincerely. 35 Some of the knowledgeable will fall, that they may be refined and purged and whitened until the time of the end, for an interval still remains until the appointed time.
36 “The king will do as he pleases; he will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak awful things against the God of gods. He will prosper until wrath is spent, and what has been decreed is accomplished. 37 He will not have regard for the god of his ancestors or for the one dear to women; he will not have regard for any god, but will magnify himself above all. 38 He will honor the god of fortresses on his stand; he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly things, a god that his ancestors never knew. 39 He will deal with fortified strongholds with the help of an alien god. He will heap honor on those who acknowledge him, and will make them master over many; he will distribute land for a price. 40 At the time of the end, the king of the south will lock horns with him, but the king of the north will attack him with chariots and riders and many ships. He will invade lands, sweeping through them like a flood; 41 he will invade the beautiful land, too; and many will fall, but these will escape his clutches: Edom, Moav, and the chief part of the Ammonites. 42 He will lay his hands on lands; not even the land of Egypt will escape. 43 He will gain control over treasures of gold and silver and over all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and Cushites will follow at his heel. 44 But reports from east and north will alarm him, and he will march forth in a great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal pavilion between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, and he will meet his doom with no one to help him.
12:1 "At that time, the great prince, Michael, who stands beside the sons of your people will appear. It will be a time of trouble, the like of which has never been since the nation came into being. At that time, your people will be rescued, all who are found inscribed in the book. 2 Many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, others to reproaches, to everlasting abhorrence. 3 And the knowledgeable will be radiant like the bright expanse of sky, and those who lead the many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.
4 "But you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will range far and wide and knowledge will increase."
5 Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing, on on one bank of the river, the other on the other bank of the river. 6 One said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the water of the river, "How long until the end of these awful things?" 7 Then I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the water of the river, swear by the Ever-Living One as he lifted his right hand and his left hand to heaven: "For a time, times, and half a time; and when the breaking of the power of the holy people comes to an end, then shall all these things be fulfilled."
8 I heard and did not understand, so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these things?" 9 He said, "Go, Daniel, for these words are secret and sealed to the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified and purged and refined; the wicked will act wickedly and none of the wicked will understand; but the knowledgeable will understand. (11 From the time the regular offering is abolished, and an appalling abomination is set up--it will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Happy the one who waits and reaches one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.) 13 But you, go on to the end; you shall rest, and arise to your destiny at the end of the days."
JPS
I believe the parts of the prophecy in chapter 11 were fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Herod the Great. Then, in chapter 12, we have a vague reference to the time of the end when the Mashiach is revealed. Not being the focus of the vision, however, it is vague and very general, the whole scope of the time afterward told in just 3 verses! The recap in the last few verses spoken between the three men was a summation of the whole of the focus of the vision. (For a fairly good explanation of the historic fulfillment of these verses, one can go to herealittletherealittle.net.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/6/2010 4:56:21 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shabbat shalom (almost), ENOCH2010.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
It's my understanding that they're will be no death during the Millennium,only peace and safety in the arms of the Lord.The only Resurrection after the Millennium,will be the Great White Thrown Judgement,which we all agree is for the all the evil people that have plagued the world since it's creation. I tried to answer your question,so I have one for you........What makes the present Church more worthy to escape Tribulation than the early Church?It appears to me that the early Church had to endure Tribulation,have you read the Book of Martyrs.They weren't raptured out before their Tribulation were they.
Ironically, I cannot agree. While it will be the first time ever that human beings will have world-wide peace for a thousand years, we have no promise that there will be no more death. Indeed, we are told that death is not ultimately defeated until the Messiah has put all enemies under His feet, the last enemy being Death, (I Cor. 15:25-26) and Death and Hades are not thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur until the Great White Throne Judgment AFTER the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).
It is only in the eternal state of the Third Earth and its Third Sky (the New Earth and New Sky that John sees in Rev. 21:1) that we are promised no more death or dying (Rev. 21:4).
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What will the Millennium be like? - 8/6/2010 7:12:03 PM
|
|
|
ENOCH2010
Posts: 131
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom (almost), ENOCH2010.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
It's my understanding that they're will be no death during the Millennium,only peace and safety in the arms of the Lord.The only Resurrection after the Millennium,will be the Great White Thrown Judgement,which we all agree is for the all the evil people that have plagued the world since it's creation. I tried to answer your question,so I have one for you........What makes the present Church more worthy to escape Tribulation than the early Church?It appears to me that the early Church had to endure Tribulation,have you read the Book of Martyrs.They weren't raptured out before their Tribulation were they.
Ironically, I cannot agree. While it will be the first time ever that human beings will have world-wide peace for a thousand years, we have no promise that there will be no more death. Indeed, we are told that death is not ultimately defeated until the Messiah has put all enemies under His feet, the last enemy being Death, (I Cor. 15:25-26) and Death and Hades are not thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur until the Great White Throne Judgment AFTER the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).
It is only in the eternal state of the Third Earth and its Third Sky (the New Earth and New Sky that John sees in Rev. 21:1) that we are promised no more death or dying (Rev. 21:4).
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
I understand what your saying Roy,it had never dawned on me that they're would be a difference in the thousand year Millennium and Eternity.If it's one thing I am,....thats teachable.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
