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RE: Tony Campolo - 9/8/2010 11:01:41 AM
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klaymaster7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: klaymaster7
quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
I appreciate that he has challenged my thinking in a couple of areas. Sometimes we need that badly - as many are prone to just believe what we've been told (by our pastors, other Christians, etc). But, that doesn't mean that I agree with him on all of his conclusions.
You've kind of contradicted yourself here. You disagree with people being told what to believe by their pastors and other Christians yet you're ok with Tony Campolo telling you what to believe? I'm not sure why we need people to change our thinking either. I mean, why don't we just read the bible? It's the infallible Word of God and it never changes. It always stays the same and is never out-dated. I think we can get really caught up in all this other STUFF and we forget that all we need is God's Word.
Hi klaymaster7 and welcome to the forum.
While I have serious reservations about Tony Campolo, I have to disagree with you that we can develop sound theology in isolation. Paul writes that we are parts of the greater body of Christ, with differing gifts that make up the whole. To borrow from his analogy, if we become an isolated eye, we also become ineffective and limited. We need our fellow believers to gently sound the alarm when we drift off track due to a misunderstanding about the Bible. The Holy Spirit is a perfect transmitter of Truth, but none of us are perfect receivers and, therefore, need each other to receive most ofg His instruction.
I whole heartedly agree with you. And actually what I meant was not that I think we can develop sound theology in isolation because if we could, then the gift of teaching would be unnecessary. What I meant was we need to be like the Bereans who examined the scriptures for themselves to see if the things the apostles were teaching were true. That's my point to user IE_2009. We need to test a preacher or teacher's words against the Word of God because his Word is truth, not what some man says. But I agree that we need pastors and teachers to help us interpret the bible. But when I listen to Tony Campolo, the spirit within me discerns that something is not right with his teaching and then I hold his word up to the scriptures and I can quickly see that what he teaches is heresy.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 9/8/2010 2:24:37 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12153
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quote:
ORIGINAL: klaymaster7
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: klaymaster7
quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
I appreciate that he has challenged my thinking in a couple of areas. Sometimes we need that badly - as many are prone to just believe what we've been told (by our pastors, other Christians, etc). But, that doesn't mean that I agree with him on all of his conclusions.
You've kind of contradicted yourself here. You disagree with people being told what to believe by their pastors and other Christians yet you're ok with Tony Campolo telling you what to believe? I'm not sure why we need people to change our thinking either. I mean, why don't we just read the bible? It's the infallible Word of God and it never changes. It always stays the same and is never out-dated. I think we can get really caught up in all this other STUFF and we forget that all we need is God's Word.
Hi klaymaster7 and welcome to the forum.
While I have serious reservations about Tony Campolo, I have to disagree with you that we can develop sound theology in isolation. Paul writes that we are parts of the greater body of Christ, with differing gifts that make up the whole. To borrow from his analogy, if we become an isolated eye, we also become ineffective and limited. We need our fellow believers to gently sound the alarm when we drift off track due to a misunderstanding about the Bible. The Holy Spirit is a perfect transmitter of Truth, but none of us are perfect receivers and, therefore, need each other to receive most ofg His instruction.
I whole heartedly agree with you. And actually what I meant was not that I think we can develop sound theology in isolation because if we could, then the gift of teaching would be unnecessary. What I meant was we need to be like the Bereans who examined the scriptures for themselves to see if the things the apostles were teaching were true. That's my point to user IE_2009. We need to test a preacher or teacher's words against the Word of God because his Word is truth, not what some man says. But I agree that we need pastors and teachers to help us interpret the bible. But when I listen to Tony Campolo, the spirit within me discerns that something is not right with his teaching and then I hold his word up to the scriptures and I can quickly see that what he teaches is heresy.
Thank you, klaymaster7, for clarifying. I think we are basically on the same page.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tony Campolo - 9/8/2010 3:52:45 PM
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IE_2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: klaymaster7
quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
I appreciate that he has challenged my thinking in a couple of areas. Sometimes we need that badly - as many are prone to just believe what we've been told (by our pastors, other Christians, etc). But, that doesn't mean that I agree with him on all of his conclusions.
You've kind of contradicted yourself here. You disagree with people being told what to believe by their pastors and other Christians yet you're ok with Tony Campolo telling you what to believe?
I said that he has challenged my thinking in a couple of areas... but that this doesn't mean that I agree with him on all of his conclusions. It appears as though you're misreading my post. I never said that I'm ok with Tony Campolo telling me what to believe. You've distorted my post entirely.
quote:
I'm not sure why we need people to change our thinking either.
I said that he's challenged it in a couple of areas.
quote:
I mean, why don't we just read the bible? It's the infallible Word of God and it never changes. It always stays the same and is never out-dated. I think we can get really caught up in all this other STUFF and we forget that all we need is God's Word.
Did I imply or say differently? Again, you seem to be misreading and distorting my post.
quote:
That's my point to user IE_2009. We need to test a preacher or teacher's words against the Word of God because his Word is truth, not what some man says. But I agree that we need pastors and teachers to help us interpret the bible.
I'm not sure why you think this point needs to be made (to me). I've not said or implied anything differently. In fact, I agree with your above statement.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/5/2010 4:39:15 PM
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Auburn88
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
I remember this guy as a kid, but over the last few years he's rebranded himself a s a radical leftist evangelist, who has a propensity for profanity. He's aligned himself up with some pretty sketchy people and is always claiming that Christians should not get into politics, yet ironically this hasn't prevented him from taking some far left hard line stances. One of his more famous quotes is that "Mixing Christianity with politics is like mixing ice cream and horse manure; the ice cream will be ruined, but the horse manure stays the same." I obviously disagree with him and the fact that he's an advocate of "social justice", but one of my pastors is a big fan of his and has quoted him to me more than once. What are other peoples thoughts on TC?
When I was a young Christian, I was somewhat liberal and was what would be commonly considered "emergent" now. At that time, I was on the staff of the production company that did the Creation Festival.
I often asked why we didn't hire Mike Warnke for the festival, but was continually told that there were "issues" with both his doctrine and his lifestyle that had not been made public, but were very well known in Christian music circles.
Looking back, I find it ironic that they wouldn't touch Warnke because of his doctrine, but embraced Campolo, who was and is a flaming heretic.
In all fairness, though, I do have a personal connection to Campolo. In addition to our mutual involvement with the Creation Festival, my mother was a colleague of his and so I knew him somewhat through her.
He was a very charming and witty guy. Very personable and likable. But he's still a heretic and still needs to repent.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/5/2010 5:14:08 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auburn88
...I often asked why we didn't hire Mike Warnke for the festival, but was continually told that there were "issues" with both his doctrine and his lifestyle that had not been made public, but were very well known in Christian music circles.
Looking back, I find it ironic that they wouldn't touch Warnke because of his doctrine, but embraced Campolo, who was and is a flaming heretic...
My understanding is that Warnke was caught in a web of lies about his accomplishments and his testimony.
Here's a link to wiki article on him.
SNIPPET:
In 1991, Cornerstone magazine launched an investigation into Warnke's life and testimony. The previous year, Cornerstone had debunked Lauren Stratford's story that had been recounted in Satan's Underground. Stratford claimed her deep involvement in Satanism led her to partake in a ritual in which her own child was sacrificed. After the exposé showed Stratford's alleged child had never existed, Cornerstone journalists Mike Hertenstein and Jon Trott investigated Warnke and his life.
The Cornerstone investigation spanned from interviews with over 100 of Warnke's personal friends and acquaintances to his ministry's tax receipts. Unfortunately for Warnke, the investigation discovered damaging evidence of fraud and deceit. During the course of Cornerstone's investigation, pictures of Warnke taken during the time he was alleged to be a Satanist priest were discovered. Rather than showing an emaciated drug-addict sporting long fingernails and waist-length hair, the pictures showed Warnke as a typical 'square' of the mid-1960s. The investigation also revealed Warnke's claims that he and Charles Manson had attended a Satanic ritual to be false; Manson was in federal prison at the time, having no known ties to Satanic churches. The investigation further uncovered that before joining the Navy, Warnke had been involved with the college Christian ministry Campus Crusade for Christ. The investigation also revealed the unflattering circumstances surrounding Warnke's multiple marriages, affairs, and divorces. Most critically, however, the investigation showed how Warnke could not have done the many things he claimed to have taken part in throughout the nine months he claimed to be a Satanist - including his claims to be a drug-addicted dealer or a Satanic high priest.
Before publishing the article, Cornerstone contacted Warnke for an interview, but he and Cornerstone could not agree to the terms of an interview. In June 1992, at the annual Christian Booksellers' Association convention, Cornerstone revealed its story.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/5/2010 6:52:02 PM
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GroupW
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Heretic I think is too strong a word. If Campolo is a heretic, so is CS Lewis. They held very similar opinions on salvation.
Personally, my take on Campolo is that he delves into the speculative portions between the lines of scriptures. There is sufficient thought provoking sections within scripture that I think would justify his speculations.
As such, I think it's fair to disagree with him strongly, but I stop short of the label of heresy.
Personally, I think Campolo raises people's anger due to his insistence that the Christian faith includes obligations of social justice. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable, although it's perfectly compatible with what we read in Matthew & James for example.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/5/2010 10:46:54 PM
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IE_2009
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Being a heretic simply means that you are teaching something that is in contradiction to "established dogma." I think that many of today's Christians forget (or are ignorant of) how many variations there have been to "established dogma" (Christian theology) in the church's 2,000 year history. Protestantism of the 1700s and 1800s is considerably different to today's protestant evangelicalism. And, Protestantism never even existed until the 1500s (Martin Luther - Protestant Reformation)!! Prior to that, established theology was determined by the Catholic church. How would you like to be a typical believer living in the early 1500s and buying sacraments and indulgences?
If we think that today's theology (in the conservative evangelical church of today) is 100% flawless, we are denying the reality that Christians throughout time have often thought similarly. Granted, many Christians will quickly acknowledge that there is the potential that they are incorrect in something. But, in what? We likely don't know. Again, today's evangelical Christian theology looks drastically different than the theologies taught through the church - even just a few centuries ago.
This is not to say that teaching false doctrine does not exist. But, I'm trying to put things into historical context. As well, even if a Christian preaches something incorrectly (something that every pastor is apt to do at some point or another), we shouldn't ignore the potential reality that SOME truth and value can still come forth. Many of us would never agree with all of Martin Luther's teachings. But, if it weren't for God using Martin Luther, we might all still be paying for sacraments and indulgences through the Catholic church! In short, God can use anyone - whether it be Martin Luther, poor and unlearned fishermen, Tony Campolo, Billy Graham - or whomever.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 10:12:53 AM
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GroupW
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Nicely said.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 2:00:15 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Heretic I think is too strong a word. If Campolo is a heretic, so is CS Lewis. They held very similar opinions on salvation.
Personally, my take on Campolo is that he delves into the speculative portions between the lines of scriptures. There is sufficient thought provoking sections within scripture that I think would justify his speculations.
As such, I think it's fair to disagree with him strongly, but I stop short of the label of heresy.
Personally, I think Campolo raises people's anger due to his insistence that the Christian faith includes obligations of social justice. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable, although it's perfectly compatible with what we read in Matthew & James for example.
Campolo makes me think of George Carlin.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 2:10:14 PM
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GroupW
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I always connect him with Don Rickles
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 2:38:07 PM
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Eutychus
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At least Carlin was trying to make a point, though often using juvenile vulgarity to shock. Rickles was just irritating for laughs at another's expense, sort of like verbal slapstick.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 2:41:46 PM
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GroupW
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I was thinking more in terms of accent appearance and mode of speech.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/6/2010 11:02:39 PM
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GroupW
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BTW: with his bald head, chubby face, east coast accent, and tendency to spit a but when he talks, do you realize how difficult it is for me to take him seriously sometimes when the image going through my head is Don Rickles with a bible?
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/7/2010 10:17:57 PM
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Charis2U
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: klaymaster7
quote:
ORIGINAL: IE_2009
I appreciate that he has challenged my thinking in a couple of areas. Sometimes we need that badly - as many are prone to just believe what we've been told (by our pastors, other Christians, etc). But, that doesn't mean that I agree with him on all of his conclusions.
You've kind of contradicted yourself here. You disagree with people being told what to believe by their pastors and other Christians yet you're ok with Tony Campolo telling you what to believe? I'm not sure why we need people to change our thinking either. I mean, why don't we just read the bible? It's the infallible Word of God and it never changes. It always stays the same and is never out-dated. I think we can get really caught up in all this other STUFF and we forget that all we need is God's Word.
Hi klaymaster7 and welcome to the forum.
While I have serious reservations about Tony Campolo, I have to disagree with you that we can develop sound theology in isolation. Paul writes that we are parts of the greater body of Christ, with differing gifts that make up the whole. To borrow from his analogy, if we become an isolated eye, we also become ineffective and limited. We need our fellow believers to gently sound the alarm when we drift off track due to a misunderstanding about the Bible. The Holy Spirit is a perfect transmitter of Truth, but none of us are perfect receivers and, therefore, need each other to receive most ofg His instruction.
Agreed, look at the example of Paul and Peter with the Gentiles for one from the Bible. People make great sounding boards to bounce off thoughts and ideas from, if they're sound in their faith.
_____________________________
In the Wolves Den
MeetingHouse Church
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/9/2010 11:58:16 AM
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Auburn88
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Heretic I think is too strong a word.
OK So what would you call somebody who denies the Biblical doctrine of justification?
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/9/2010 6:53:23 PM
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GroupW
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Someone who isn't Tony Campolo. 
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/11/2010 7:28:05 PM
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Auburn88
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Someone who isn't Tony Campolo.
Except that Tony Campolo does deny the Biblical doctrine of justification. Going by the interview he did with Todd Friel, I think a strong case can be made that Campolo is a Universalist.
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/11/2010 7:51:48 PM
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GroupW
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It depends on how one defines universalism, but in the more narrow sense of the word he is very similar in his universalism to CS Lewis and quite a few of the early church fathers such as Origen.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/11/2010 7:54:42 PM
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GroupW
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And no, he does not deny the doctrine of justification ( that I've ever seen anyway) but if one gets one's info from the various anti-campolo blogs in various snippets one could put together some quotes that might make it seem that way I suppose.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/12/2010 10:08:19 AM
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Auburn88
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
And no, he does not deny the doctrine of justification ( that I've ever seen anyway) but if one gets one's info from the various anti-campolo blogs in various snippets one could put together some quotes that might make it seem that way I suppose.
Except that I'm talking about interviews that Campolo did with Todd Friel. I'm talking about Campolo's own words and his own presentation of his beliefs.
< Message edited by Auburn88 -- 10/12/2010 10:16:49 AM >
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/12/2010 3:00:36 PM
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GroupW
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Interesting, since I'm doing the same.
Which part of the interview are you referring to, and is there a link anywhere to the complete text?
I'm finding it diffiicult to imagine how one can deny justification on the one hand and then insist on a literal hell & redemption for the saved on the other.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/12/2010 3:03:04 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
And... he does... deny the doctrine of ...various snippets...
Could you give us an example.
I'd love to, but it's a bit like asking a blind man to describe the color green. I don't personally think Campolo denies it having listened to him a couple of times in person and read a couple of his books, so I have a bit of a difficulty trying to put it together.
I am, however, convinved that people don't make this stuff up - they get their opinions from something he said, understood rightly or wrongly.
_____________________________
There is a theory that if ever anyone discovers what the Universe is and why it's here, it will instantly disappear & be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states this has already happened. (D. Adams)
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/12/2010 3:10:38 PM
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IE_2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auburn88
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Someone who isn't Tony Campolo.
Except that Tony Campolo does deny the Biblical doctrine of justification. Going by the interview he did with Todd Friel, I think a strong case can be made that Campolo is a Universalist.
Although I can't speak on Tony Campolo's behalf (AND I'm not a TC expert by any stretch of the imagination), I think that Campolo makes it clear that salvation only comes through faith in Jesus. However, he also seems to believe that there can be individuals who do not label themselves a "Christian" (or that have perfect theology in other areas) BUT - they are still saved because they are trusting in Jesus. This could, in fact, include people that might label themselves something other than a Christian.
I've heard Campolo speak words that, initially, sound quite frightening, heretical and unbiblical. But, upon closer examination I've come to realize that he firmly attests to John 14:6 which says, "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I've heard Campolo state this clearly at least a couple of times. Thus, any thoughts of him being a "Universalist" are only partly true.
As for me, I'm trying to give Campolo a little bit of "room" in how he chooses his words. Honestly, I think that sometimes he says things (or uses certain words) that creates a false view of what he's trying to say. (That's his fault for not communicating better). Then again, like I said, I'm not an expert of all-things TC. There are undoubtedly things he believes that I don't believe. But, I could say that about my own pastor, my former pastor, anyone reading this, etc. It's just that TC very often shocks his listeners because his views challenge our accepted norm and understandings. This, by definition, is heretical. The same was true of Martin Luther in the 1500s. Luther's teachings WERE heretical by definition. But, they also challenged what was obviously unbiblical, things that were taught and practiced within the Catholic church at the time. We must remember, Luther's theology and teachings are hardly beliefs that you and I would subscribe to today. But, his 95 Thesis stirred things enough to expose practices in the church that were truly in need of change. I think that Campolo can often have the same effect. He sees things in today's church that are unbiblical (or in error at least) --- and he attempts to challenge his listener. Many people don't like this. And, many people use his words (out of context) to discredit everything he says. Not always - but sometimes.
I'll repeat, I'm not an expert on TC teachings - nor can I speak for him. But, my personal opinion is that there are SOME important things he is saying - things that today's church would benefit from praying about - and dialoguing about. At the same time, this doesn't mean we have to agree with him on everything he says. Surely, every human being is subject to error. Even Peter himself didn't know that salvation extended to the Gentiles until well after Jesus' death and resurrection. (Acts 11:18) From what I know, TC believes in the inerrancy of Scripture AND that Jesus is the only way the the Father. If he has said differently, it'd be good to see a reference provided to that effect. (Something in context, of course).
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RE: Tony Campolo - 10/12/2010 4:05:35 PM
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Auburn88
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Interesting, since I'm doing the same.
Obviously, you're not, since you refer to it below as a print interview.
quote:
Which part of the interview are you referring to
The part where Todd asks him about justification.
quote:
and is there a link anywhere to the complete [interview]?
Probably. You can find just about anything on the internet.
quote:
I'm finding it diffiicult to imagine how one can deny justification on the one hand and then insist on a literal hell & redemption for the saved on the other.
Actually, that's one of the problems revealed in the interview. Not only does he not believe in a literal Heaven, he actually mocks the idea of a "pie in the sky when you die by and by". They even play the clip at the beginning of every show.
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