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unconditional love - 7/26/2010 12:51:14 PM
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jazzact13
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This topic is kind of inspired by a post at the 'dream church' thread, but I didn't want to take it off-topic, so thought it best to start another.
The idea was that God has unconditional love for us, and so should the church. Some questions came to my about that, and would like to put them here for more general discussion.
1. Considering the many and varied ways in which the word 'love' is used, what is meant by the idea that the church should 'love' people or that God 'unconditionally loves' people?
This is, I think, a pretty serious question that needs to be answered. There is a church in Michigan that has recently claimed that, because people of various other religions and lifestyles have begun attending it, they will stop using the word 'church' in their name, take down the cross from their spire, and basically doesn't want to offend anyone. On this ex-church's site it says things like these, "Pursuing Inclusive Spirituality – We value the inclusive spiritual journey. We welcome people of all faiths and no faith. All people are encouraged to craft their individual spiritual journey in a safe, supportive community". and "love and gracious acceptance, celebrating ethnicity, gender, age, and sexual orientation.""who we are" page Is this all-inclusiveness what is meant by "unconditional love"?
2. When it is said that "God unconditionally loves us", does the 'us' mean believers, or mankind as a whole, or some other group? What scriptural basis is there for saying that God unconditionally loves people? What about the Scriptures that say that God has wrath towards those who are in disobedience, and will judge those who do not believe in Christ?
I'm interested in getting some responses.
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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RE: unconditional love - 7/28/2010 4:32:43 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2121
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
This topic is kind of inspired by a post at the 'dream church' thread, but I didn't want to take it off-topic, so thought it best to start another.
The idea was that God has unconditional love for us, and so should the church. Some questions came to my about that, and would like to put them here for more general discussion.
1. Considering the many and varied ways in which the word 'love' is used, what is meant by the idea that the church should 'love' people or that God 'unconditionally loves' people?
This is, I think, a pretty serious question that needs to be answered. There is a church in Michigan that has recently claimed that, because people of various other religions and lifestyles have begun attending it, they will stop using the word 'church' in their name, take down the cross from their spire, and basically doesn't want to offend anyone. On this ex-church's site it says things like these, "Pursuing Inclusive Spirituality – We value the inclusive spiritual journey. We welcome people of all faiths and no faith. All people are encouraged to craft their individual spiritual journey in a safe, supportive community". and "love and gracious acceptance, celebrating ethnicity, gender, age, and sexual orientation.""who we are" page Is this all-inclusiveness what is meant by "unconditional love"?
2. When it is said that "God unconditionally loves us", does the 'us' mean believers, or mankind as a whole, or some other group? What scriptural basis is there for saying that God unconditionally loves people? What about the Scriptures that say that God has wrath towards those who are in disobedience, and will judge those who do not believe in Christ?
I'm interested in getting some responses.
God is Love and it was His love that created all. So to separate God from all that is His is problematic. So I see God's love as unconditional.
Love is. It does not depend on the other. My earthly father loved me regardless of my actions, what I did or did not do. Father God's love is like that. Or rather my earthly father's love was like God's love for me.
The next question is what does love do?
Love disciplines those He loves (see Hebrews 12).
Love is bordered by truth (lots of references for these but since I just read II John, I'll use that). Without the borders of truth, 'love' would be destructive.
Love judges.
God desires that ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is man's highest good. That is love.
That should be our heart as well.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: unconditional love - 7/28/2010 4:54:33 PM
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theprincessbuttercup
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I do believe that God loves us unconditionally. But I think our definition of love is much more shallow than His. He is our heavenly father, so I think of my relationship with my children. I love them unconditionally. And yes, part of that is the indescribably warm and fuzzy feeling of just HAVING them. But to be a properly loving parent, that love must extend beyond the warm and fuzzy. When my children make a wrong choice, I do not stop loving them, but I also do not pat them on the head and say "You're Okay I'm Okay." I tell them the truth in love. I discipline them in love. I want what is best for them, not just what feels good. And THAT is love. This modern Kum-ba-ya type of love that our lukewarmness pro-ports these days is not love. It's laziness wrapped in a desire to be liked by everyone. It's self-serving and easy. That isn't how Jesus loves.
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RE: unconditional love - 7/28/2010 5:17:20 PM
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bkj1981
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God indeed does desire all people to be saved. God indeed does love every one of us.
But let me ask this:
You have a son. You love him. He gets in trouble, by doing something illegal. And goes to jail. So, he's in jail, say for two years. Do you still love him? Now take it a step farther. Your son kills someone while commiting a robbery. And receives the death penalty. Do you still love him?
God loves us, but he created us with Free Will. His desire is for us to come to him. But if we don't, then when our time on earth is done, we will face his wrath. Because God is a Just God as well as a God of Mercy.
Princessbuttercup, I agree that our concept of love is so much more shallow than God's.
*~*~*~*~*
As to people loving others unconditionally - "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31) definitely applies. Who is your neighbor? Look at the parable of the good Samaritan for an example (Luke 10:25-37). But this love is not to be blind, all-accepting love. For brothers and sisters in Christ, correction and admonishment comes into play. For non-believers, showing them through your OWN life example that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light is one of the most loving things that you can do. That does NOT mean, however, that we all just sit around the campfire and sing songs. Just as with raising children, "tough love" comes into play.
*~*~*~*~*
As to the idea of "accepting all faiths freely' in a church - Wow. That is, I believe, a road to chaos. That is not a church, IMHO. It is rather a "spritual club". An Elks lodge for discussions of religion, if you will.
Thanks for reading my opinions.
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RE: unconditional love - 7/28/2010 8:35:41 PM
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jhuperetes
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Look up Alvin Plantinga's defense of free will.
Although I am not sure I agree with everything, it is an interesting approach and often gives sufficient basis to begin to grasp God's love.
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RE: unconditional love - 7/28/2010 9:40:27 PM
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mushhead
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God does love us inspite of our sin. If His love was conditioned upon our behavior then none of us would be loved by God. That said, the Bible is clear that our actions determine if we experience the blessing/benefits of God's love. In John 15:9 Jesus commanded us to abide in God's love. Whoever ignores God and instead chooses to teach, promote, and act upon whatever they want in the name of inclusion and tolerance are not abiding in His love and consequently will find themselves far from God and the blessing of His love (the Prodigal Son is a good example of this fact).
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: unconditional love - 7/31/2010 6:52:31 AM
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gralan
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Note: I've found Plantinga's work to be especially mind-opening for me.
But then I enjoy reading Barth, and cannot see most of the problems people force upon him and his writings either. I think a lot of people read what they want into Barth.
Barth proclaimed with Augustine - I believe in order to understand.
I cannot experience the knowledge of God's unconditional love until I actually know God exists. Until then, I'm lost in my own little world of make believe.
"I'm okay - you're okay" Christianity is a false doctrine. Our message is not our own making, God says "I have reconciled the world to myself in Christ Jesus." Our message is for people to be reconciled to God.
At least when it was in the world's psychology framework, well, all sinners are in the same boat so why not acknowledge that they are all the same.
We did not make ourselves. We do not make the rules. We are the creatures, not the Creators.
God loves us, that is why God didn't abandon humankind once Adam and Eve sinned.
Be reconciled to God. Please.
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BTh student TGSAT
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: unconditional love - 7/31/2010 1:43:00 PM
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jazzact13
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It's been a busy few days, and I haven't had much of a chance to comment again as I would have liked, until now.
Interesting points.
It seems quite common to compare God's love for us with a parent's love for a child, and that is I think not without biblical merit, to a degree. The question I would have next, though, is who do you think are God's children? In some passages the Bible speaks of "children of wrath", and Jesus says of some people that their father is the devil.
Also, if God's love for His children is different than how he feels for those who are not, then can we really say that it is completely unconditional? And would it seem to make God's love somehow less loving if there were a condition, such as one needing to be a child of God?
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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RE: unconditional love - 7/31/2010 2:58:12 PM
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Ps103
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I think too many people confuse "unconditional love" with "unconditional positive regard."
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RE: unconditional love - 7/31/2010 4:36:28 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
I think too many people confuse "unconditional love" with "unconditional positive regard."
Well, gralan seems to get it, but I must confess to some confusion. I'm not sure what is meant by "unconditional positive regard".
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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RE: unconditional love - 8/1/2010 4:19:03 PM
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Ps103
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Jazz, Unconditional Positive Regard was a psychological theory that was popular for a while, though I really hope it has fallen out of favor because it only causes problems.
What is says, in essence, is that in order for people to attain personal growth, they need an environment where they receive no unfavorable judgment at all, just positives. It was believed that given the unconditional positive regard, people would (miraculously, I suppose) come to the realization on their own that there were behaviors they needed to modify and make the necessary changes.
Of course, that could fertilize every corn field in Kansas.
This is not unconditional love--it isn't love at all. But this is what people have come to define as unconditional love.
Let me give you an example: Say I lose my head completely and take off with the UPS man--leaving my husband and his wife and kids to sort out the mess we have left them in, and not really caring because hey--we're in looooove, and God wants us to be happy--right?
My church won't put up with that and attempts to discipline me by explaining the gravity of my sin and requiring my repentance before allowing me to rejoin the fellowship.
I get all huffy--who are *they* to judge me? How *dare* they presume to make a judgment about me, when we all know that God is the ultimate judge, but He sent Jesus to die for my sins, and this is just another one of them, so I am already forgiven--what is the big deal? They are just a bunch of holier-than-thou hypocrites, anyway--just because they know about my sin doesn't mean they haven't done as bad or worse, themselves. Just because I don't know what they have done doesn't mean they aren't big old sinners, too--and worse even than me, because they are judging me, and everyone knows we are not supposed to judge. Heh--and they have the nerve to call themselves Christians! I'll bet God is really offended by all the hypocrites running His churches and trying to take over His job!
So, rather than take my discipline and realize I am in sin, I look for a better church--one that will really love me and not judge me. Or my new boyfriend, who hadn't really been inside a church except for his father's funeral in twenty years, but I know he is a Christian because his momma told me he got saved when he was four.
But I *need* to find a church to accept us, because until I do there will be this annoying, unsettling feeling that maybe I *have* done something wrong. I need a church to open its arms to us, remind us that God loves us unconditionally and wants nothing more than for us to be happy. And until a church can tell me that, I run the risk of actually seeing myself as a selfish adulteress, and I just can't deal with that.
And I am reading the local newspaper and this ad leaps out at me (so it *must* be a God Thing, right?):
quote:
"Pursuing Inclusive Spirituality – We value the inclusive spiritual journey. We welcome people of all faiths and no faith. All people are encouraged to craft their individual spiritual journey in a safe, supportive community".
Whoooooa! That sounds like heaven on earth!
So I run down there and talk to their pastor--who assures me that I am a fine and decent person and that I am not really *sinning,* because sin is such a harsh word and they don't like to use harsh words--they sound so unloving. He assures me that God loves me and wants me to be happy, but God knows that I am just human and will make mistakes along the way--the important thing to do is keep going. God will honor that. The pastor wouldn't presume to judge me or tell me I was wrong--who would he think he was if he interfered with the lessons God was trying to teach me? No--that isn't what his church is all about--they are about love and making people feel safe and happy, because there is enough evil and judgment in the world, and they want me to feel good while I am at church.
Okay--which church actually loves me?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: unconditional love - 8/2/2010 12:15:52 AM
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gralan
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You know, old theories never die. They just get regurgitated back into the bowl and called something new, maybe combined with other old indigestible theories.
God does not act that way towards humans, even when we are in a purely fallen state.
The New Testament is not a record of how God "reorganized the Jewish religion". Jesus came to show us in person how God loves us.
The postman already came. Did you read your letter today?
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suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: unconditional love - 8/2/2010 7:10:48 PM
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Dave4HIS_glory
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God's unconditional love sent Jesus, as propitiation to satisfy the sentence we all deserve. It's our choice to recieve pardon and reconciliation. But we can choose the way that seems right in our own eyes too. Doesn't change the fact that Righteous God said, " I am the way, the truth, and the life;no man comes to the Father but by me."
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Gallatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live ; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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RE: unconditional love - 8/2/2010 7:19:12 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
I think too many people confuse "unconditional love" with "unconditional positive regard."
I agree with gralan.
As we say around here, "Maaaan, that'll preach!!"
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"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: unconditional love - 8/2/2010 11:22:04 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Jazz, Unconditional Positive Regard was a psychological theory that was popular for a while, though I really hope it has fallen out of favor because it only causes problems.
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, that kind of thing is a big problem, and it does get called 'love' by those who practice it.
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The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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